Home/BlogSUMMARY: Examination of vote totals across ~6,000 Florida precincts during the 2016 presidential election shows that a 1st digit Benford’s type analysis can seem to suggest fraud when precinct vote totals have both normal and log-normal distribution components. Without prior knowledge of what the precinct-level vote total frequency distribution would be in the absence of fraud, I see no way to apply 1st digit Benford’s Law analysis to deduce fraud. Any similar analysis would have the same problem, because it depends upon the expected frequency distribution of vote totals, which is difficult to estimate because it is tantamount to knowing a vote outcome absent fraud. Instead, it might be more useful to simply examine the precinct-level vote distributions, rather than Benford-type analysis of those data, and compare one candidate’s distribution to that of other candidates.
It has been only one week since someone introduced me to Benford’s Law as a possible way to identify fraud in elections. The method looks at the first digit of all vote totals reported across many (say, thousands) of precincts. If the vote totals in the absence of fraudulently inflated values can be assumed to have either a log-normal distribution or a 1/X distribution, then the relative frequency of the 1st digits (1 through 9) have very specific values, deviations from which might suggest fraud.
After a weekend examining vote totals from Philadelphia during the 2020 presidential primary, my results were mixed. Next, I decided to examine Florida precinct level data from the 2016 election (data from the 2020 general election are difficult to find). My intent was to determine whether Benford’s Law can really be applied to vote totals when there was no evidence of widespread fraud. In the case of Trump votes in the 2020 primary in Philadelphia, the answer was yes, the data closely followed Benford. But that was just one election, one candidate, and one city.
When I analyzed the Florida 2016 general election data, I saw departures from Benford’s Law in both Trump and Clinton vote totals:
Fig. 1. First-digit Benford’s Law-type analysis of 2016 presidential vote totals for Trump and Clinton in Florida, compared to that of a synthetic log-normal distribution having the same mean and standard deviations as the actual vote data, with 99% confidence level of 100 log-normal distributions with the same sample size.
For at least the “3” and “4” first digit values, the results are far outside what would be expected if the underlying vote frequency distribution really was log-normal.
This caused me to examine the original frequency distributions of the votes, and then I saw the reason why: Both the Trump and Clinton frequency distributions exhibit elements of both log-normal and normal distribution shapes.
Fig. 2. Frequency distributions of the precinct-level vote totals in Florida during the 2016 general election. Both Trump and Clinton distributions show evidence of log-normal and normal distribution behavior. Benford’s Law analysis only applies to log-normal (or 1/x) distributions.
And this is contrary to the basis for Bendford’s Law-type analysis of voting data: It assumes that vote totals follow a specific frequency distribution (lognormal or 1/x), and if votes are fraudulently added (AND those fake additions are approximately normally distributed!), then the 1st-digit analysis will depart from Benford’s Law.
Since Benford’s Law analysis depends upon the underlying distribution being pure lognormal (or 1/x power law shape), it seems that understanding the results of any Benford’s Law analysis depends upon the expected shape of these voting distributions… and that is not a simple task. Is the expected distribution of vote totals really log-normal?
Why Should Precinct Vote Distributions have a Log-normal Shape?
Benford’s Law analyses of voting data depend upon the expectation that there will be many more precincts with low numbers of votes cast than precincts with high numbers of votes. Voting locations in rural areas and small towns will obviously not have as many voters as do polling places in large cities, and presumably there will be more of them.
As a result, precinct-level vote totals will tend to have a frequency distribution with more low-vote totals, and fewer high vote totals. In order to produce Benford’s Law type results, the distribution must have either a log-normal or a power law (1/x) shape.
But there are reasons why we might expect vote totals to also exhibit more of a normal-type (rather than log-normal) distribution.
Why Might Precinct-Level Vote Totals Depart from Log-Normal?
While I don’t know the details, I would expect that the number of voting locations would be scaled in such a way that each location can handle a reasonable level of voter traffic, right?
For the sake of illustration of my point, one might imagine a system where ALL voting locations, whether urban or rural, were optimally designed to handle roughly 1,000 voters at expected levels of voter turnout.
In the cities maybe these would be located every few blocks. In rural Montana, some voters might have to travel 100 miles to vote. In this imaginary system, I think you can see that the precinct-level vote totals would then be more normally distributed, with an average of around 1,000 votes and just as many 500-vote precincts as 1,500 vote precincts (instead of far more low-vote precincts than high-vote precincts, as is currently the case).
But, we wouldn’t want rural voters to have to drive 100 miles to vote, right? And there might not be enough public space to have voting locations every 2 blocks in a city, and as a results some VERY high vote totals can be expected from crowded urban voting locations.
So, we instead have a combination of the two distributions: log-normal (because there are many rural locations with few voters, and some urban voting places that are over-crowded) and normal (because cities will tend to have precinct locations optimized to handle a certain number of voters, as best they can).
Benford-Type Analysis of Synthetic Normal and Log-normal Distributions
If I create two sets of synthetic data, 100,000 values in each, one with a normal distribution and one with a log-normal distribution, this is what the relative frequencies of the 1st digit of those vote totals looks like:
Fig. 3. 1st-digit analysis of a normal frequency distribution versus a long-normal distribution (Benford’s Law).
The results for a normal distribution move around quite a lot, depending upon the assumed mean and standard deviation of that distribution.
I believe that what is going on in the Florida precinct data is simply a combination of normal and log-normal distributions of the vote totals. So, for a variety of reasons, the vote totals do not follow a log-normal distribution and so cannot be interpreted with Benford’s Law-type analyses.
One can easily imagine other reasons for the frequency distribution of precinct-level votes to depart from log-normal.
What one would need is convincing evidence of that the frequency distribution should look like in the absence of fraud. But I don’t see how that is possible, unless one candidate’s vote distribution is extremely skewed relative to another candidate’s vote totals, or compared to primary voting totals.
And this is what happened in Milwaukee (and other cities) in the most recent elections: The Benford Law analysis suggested very different frequency distributions for Trump than for Biden.
I would think it is more useful to just look at the raw precinct-level vote distributions (e.g. like Fig. 2) rather than a Benford analysis of those data. The Benford analysis technique suggests some sort of magical, universal relationship, but it is simply the result of a log-normal distribution of the data. Any departure from the Benford percentages is simply a reflection of the underlying frequency distribution departing from log-normal, and not necessarily indicative of fraud.
“What one would need is convincing evidence of [what] the frequency distribution should look like in the absence of fraud. But I don’t see how that is possible, unless one candidate’s vote distribution is extremely skewed relative to another candidate’s vote totals.”
One simple option is to look at history. If a given precinct was 40% for Republicans 4 years ago and 20% now, that is useful evidence. (Of course, there are other factors. if the whole city went from 35% to 25%, then 40%$ to 20% in one district is not so surprising. And boundaries change, so the precinct itself could have changed).
Also, if the order of the votes is recorded, then 100 consecutive extra votes for one candidate would be a red flag. It might indicate someone running the same ballot through 100 times in a row.
because there is no way to know if a mail in ballit is real they will not count. trump wins. biden says he will add enough democrats to the suprems to give the democrats the majority. the repubacans on the suprime court probaly will not let that happen. trump wins.
there is no appeal of the supreams. trump wins.
☺
Yes, I can imagine a variety of things to look for. But nothing beats eyewitness evidence in signed affidavits from poll watchers and workers, as is now coming out in Detroit.
Well, eyewitnesses are actually not nearly as reliable as people think. They interject their own biases (whether consciously or subconsciously) and their memories are often a bit malleable. And sometimes they outright lie.
I am sure there are instances of problems — from fraud to clerical errors to poorly-trained volunteer poll-workers who misunderstand the rules. But when I read things like
I am not convinced that the problems rise to a sufficient magnitude or sufficient level of illegality to overturn results in multiple states to give Trump a win.
Maybe a ‘smoking gun’ will still show up, but we haven’t seen it yet.
It would take some guts for an observer to lie on an affidavit.
Far more likely, flat out hubris and stupidity……..
Perhaps a meth habit
https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/postal-worker-fabricated-ballot-pennsylvania/2020/11/10/99269a7c-2364-11eb-8599-406466ad1b8e_story.html
Or, it takes a desire for attention. After any (real or imagined) crime there are always many people willing to submit, under penalty of perjury, false eyewitness reports. Trumps own lawyers rejected more than half of the affidavits they received as obviously false, according to courtroom transcripts. That’s a good chunk of people that were willing to perjure themselves just to say they were involved.
Trump is naturally laser focused on ‘fraud’ in big cities but he actually did slightly better in these cities than historically. His real problem was in the suburbs..
https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/dont-blame-fraud-dwindling-suburban-support-lost-michigan-trump
tim…”eyewitnesses are actually not nearly as reliable as people think”.
Tim…the point is that something stinks and an investigation is required. It has just been revealed that the Canadian company who supplies voting machines in key states are using software supplied by a company that specializes in rigging Third World elections.
When Biden can make up 500,000 votes in Pennsylvania based on mail-in ballots alone, I’d cry foul. That’s the state where the Democrat governor swore that Trump would never win there.
“When Biden can make up 500,000 votes in Pennsylvania based on mail-in ballots alone, Id cry foul.”
Why? Republicans avoided mail-in ballots like the plague and Democrats avoided day-of voting like the plague (very literally like it, in fact). Everyone who knew even a bit about it expected Trump to dominate in day-of voting and Biden to dominate in mail-in voting. That’s not fraud, it’s just different preferences about when to vote between the parties.
“It has just been revealed that the Canadian company who supplies voting machines in key states are using software supplied by a company that specializes in rigging Third World elections.”
It was revealed by a single anonymous post on a conspiracy forum. That’s it, that is literally 100% of the evidence for this claim. Do you have any additional evidence? Not “claim” but “evidence”. I doubt it.
“the point is that something stinks and an investigation is required”
That sums up the quality of evidence for the scattertshot legal challenges tro the election.
“But nothing beats eyewitness evidence in signed affidavits from poll watchers and workers, as is now coming out in Detroit.”
‘Now coming out’ ???
https://thefederalist.com/2020/11/12/lawsuit-claims-40000-plus-fraudulent-ballots-pumped-through-detroit-for-joe-biden/
Dr. Spencer: When you write about climate science, you come across as honest and open, objective, and with an appropriate level of skepticism. Your statements are typically well-nuanced too. (You also explain it very well, which also gives you high credibility with me.) But when you write about politics, you often don’t sound very objective, and your level of skepticism here on the affidavits, and general allegations large-scale fraud, seems woefully short.
CM…”But when you write about politics, you often dont sound very objective…”
You’re the one who is not being objective, you are simply regurgitating the biased opinions of fake news outlets.
I am a socialist, not the Russian Bolshevik fake-socialists, but one of the kind who fought in unions for freedoms and benefits many people now take for granted. Trump’s economic policies are the opposite of mine but I can live with those differences because we agree on democracy and with regard to global warming and the covid virus nonsense.
Trump is not as dumb as he is portrayed, he has a gut instinct for politics and he knows how to get across his message to people. The world needs this guy to have another 4 years rather than the politically-correct Democrats who will screw this world over.
The Democrats have been whining since 2016 and have gone to extreme measures to get rid of Trump. Do you seriously think they would not jump at the chance to rig an election after the despicable manner in which they conducted themselves the past 4 years?
Yes, the two of you are very stable geniuses.
Ugggh
Partisan hacks in desperation mode filing the void..
Isnt it odd that the Trump campaign’s own lawsuit fails to mention this accusation.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2020/11/11/trump-campaign-lawsuit-over-detroit-vote-counting-process/6243218002/
nate…there was no software glitch in Antrim County, the error (glitch) was human. The question is, how many of those errors are there? Trump has a right to know and the Democrats are desperate that he not find out.
If he’s so desperate to find out, why is he not asking the courts? He asks on Twitter and his lawyers ask in press conferences, but they have yet to bring it up in court. Don’t believe me? Read the transcripts, for example:
Giuliani (PA): This is not a fraud case.
Langhofer (AZ): Were not alleging fraud in this lawsuit.
Why is that do you suppose? Is it because you can be found in contempt or guilty of perjury in court but not at a press conference?
No, that can’t be it, it must be because… (fill in your preferred excuse).
According to who? Q?
You are being conned.
https://local12.com/news/nation-world/no-a-red-wagon-did-not-smuggle-invalid-ballots-in-detroit-presidential-election-donald-trump-joe-biden
many such claims debunked, but they will keep coming.
Just coming out…….. but certainly not in this blog!
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/kris-kobach-and-search-mythical-voter-fraud/617069/
bruce…just another pathetic apologist for the fake news media.
40 000 votes fraud challenge thrown out.
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2020/11/13/judge-rejects-bid-wayne-county-audit-halt-election-certification/6278120002/
It’s stunning how few of these numerous law suits carry any evidentiary basis.
Here’s a list of many of them, including their status:
https://time.com/5908505/trump-lawsuits-biden-wins/
barry…”Its stunning how few of these numerous law suits carry any evidentiary basis”.
Maybe you don’t know how the court system works in the US and Canada. First, you are required to complain at the state/provincial level. If you get no satisfaction, you take it to the Supreme Court.
Time after time here in Canada, I have seen lower courts make deplorable decisions only to have them reversed at the Supreme Court level. I don’t know what it is with lower courts, many of the judges are plain dumb-asses.
I know one thing. Before the election, at least two US federal judges took note of a decision made by a state court which allowed extended time for mail-in vote counting in Pennsylvania. They thought it unconstitutional but did not interfere due to the closeness of the election. You can be sure that will reach them again.
On election night, when it was plain that Trump was winning, the mail-in ballot counting in several states was suddenly stopped. At the time, I began to suspect something was wrong.
“On election night, when it was plain that Trump was winning, the mail-in ballot counting in several states was suddenly stopped.”
Which states? Most states don’t count mail-in ballots overnight because there’s rarely a rush for them. That’s why, for example, Clark county in Nevada packed up shop on election night and waited till the morning to start counting remaining ballots. They weren’t planning on being a swing state with the whole world watching. Once that became apparent, though, they ramped up throughput.
It’s almost like nobody watched an election before and this is all so new and strange.
“l. If you get no satisfaction, you take it to the Supreme Court.”
No Gordon, you are ignorant.
Most cases will never get anywhere near the SCOTUS.
A case would have to have a legitimate legal issue that is in question. These cases mostly do not.
Roy, I had no idea you were that stupid. Trump’s lawsuits is collapsing in state after state. Not a single case is about actual election fraud, but small and insignificant technicalities. I’ve been reading about these crazy cheating for a whole week. Not a single one of them has reached the courts. Even the postman who had written two contradictory affadivits Trump’s lawyers chose to drop. And now you tell me that: «But nothing beats eyewitness evidence in signed affidavits from poll watchers and workers, as is now coming out in Detroit.» Well, that train has left the station, Trump does not pay his lawyer bills so the firm has left him. In short, you should be far more concerned how close the United States was to Germany 1932, than these ridiculous attempts to provide evidence that the American electoral system is rotten.
rune…”Roy, I had no idea you were that stupid. Trumps lawsuits is collapsing in state after state”.
You’re an ignorant SOB for making such a claim about Roy. In case it has escaped your ignorance, the failures are happening in Democrat states, likely with Democrat judges. The remedy is to get the argument before the Supreme Court. There is plenty of time for that.
Even at that, Trump is not compelled to resign. Due to the closeness of the stats he could push this a long way, and if it gets before the House of Representatives, he wins.
They are simply exhausting every avenue.
“the failures are happening in Democrat states, likely with Democrat judges.”
You’re right, it’s strange that Trump isn’t trying to overturn the election in red states where he won… oh, wait. So far most judges are either Trump or GW appointees, so I guess that’s not true either.
“Due to the closeness of the stats he could push this a long way, and if it gets before the House of Representatives, he wins.”
2016 was much closer, so that’s a load of crap.
the only chance trump has is the election day is supost to be nov. 3. but the election went on for 2 months. trumps goes to the suprems and says this election is unconstotional because it did not happen on nov. 3 so we need a do over.
Drunk texting again?
yup, at least i have a excuse for being dum, whats yours?
jane…”yup, at least i have a excuse for being dum, whats yours?”
Good one, Jane, Nate is a bit of a banana.
You really didn’t need another reason.
we need a do over election, a run off election between trump and biden.
As soon as we see some hard evidence of widespread fraud.
Instead of partisan speculation and fishing expiditions.
barry…”As soon as we see some hard evidence of widespread fraud”.
It’s not up to you, or the fake news outlets, or the Associated Press. As it stands, at the moment, it will be the Supreme Court making such decisions.
Let democracy work.
Trump needs to win some cases in the lower courts to get to the Supreme Court.
What’s it now, like 0 for 20?
“it will be the Supreme Court making such decisions.”
Come back here on Jan 21 and let us know how that went.
“…it will be the Supreme Court making such decisions.
Let democracy work.”
Yes, those two senstences were right next to each other. Gormless irony.
Hi Roy, attached is a link to a very thorough Benford Analysis for all the precincts in Atlanta, Georgia. What is striking is that election day voting for both Trump and Biden pass the test, where as the mail in voting for Trump passes but the Biden data fails. Video shows detailed methodology and interpretation of data. You will like it.
https://lbry.tv/@EdwardKingSolomon:5/biden-s-mail-in-votes-fail-benford-test:3
Check Matt Parker’s video on Benford’s Law:
https://youtu.be/etx0k1nLn78
For anyone who likes this sort of mathematical forensics, you might check out “Freakonomics”. Those two authors (and their ilk) are the ones who should be turned loose on this issue. (But of course, the analysis would take more than a month to really parse out all the details).
tim…”But of course, the analysis would take more than a month …”
Time should not come into it, this is about democracy. 50% of US voters are backing Trump.
Actually 47% voted for Trump, 51% Biden.
Perhaps you think thats a minor difference that can be ignored…
The overall gist of this article seems to be to debunk the Benford Law analysis for precinct vote counts. Thank you for that.
But this part is confusing
“What one would need is convincing evidence of that the frequency distribution should look like in the absence of fraud. But I dont see how that is possible, unless one candidates vote distribution is extremely skewed relative to another candidates vote totals.
And this is what happened in Milwaukee (and other cities) in the most recent elections: The Benford Law analysis suggested very different frequency distributions for Trump than for Biden.”
Are you implying here that this difference was meaningful???
Clearly it is arising from the fact that as you noted, the Precinct Sizes are narrowly distributed, and Biden received the vast majority of Votes in almost all of these precincts.
Say Biden received 60-90 % of a narrowly distributed number. In Milwaukee. That results in a still narrowly distributed number. And so happens to peak near 500 votes
Trump received 10-40 %, that results in a broader distribution than Bidens. And it just so happens to peak near 100 votes, a better but partly accidental match to Benford.
Correction:
Trump received 10-40 %, that results in a broader LOG SCALE distribution than Bidens.
I think this kind of investigation and analysis is important. The basic problem is that a very significant number of ballots were mailed to people who did not request them and did not complete them. A more fundamental question is whether there is any accounting of how many ballots were actually printed and distributed. Were excess ballots printed?
Uhhhh…
Most states kept track of who submitted votes by mail, required signatures, and thus voting twice was avoided..
Are you pretending not to understand my post? The important question that deserves an answer is how many unaccounted-for ballots are left floating around country? That number plus how many actually voted as you explain would equal the total number that were printed. Sorry that I have to explain something so simple.
Some may think it is okay to abuse Trump for various reasons. Please consider the fact that next time it could be your candidate who is being abused. We need to have fair elections that are accountable and tallied on election day.
tim s…”The important question that deserves an answer is how many unaccounted-for ballots are left floating around country?”
That’s why an investigation is required. The identity of each voter needs to be ascertained and that cannot be left in the hands of Biden. As it stands, as each main-in vote was tallied, the ID was thrown out.
That’s grounds for throwing out all mail-in ballots or doing the election again.
There are undoubtedly unreturned ones. And so?
“whether there is any accounting of how many ballots were actually printed and distributed.”
Every county that uses mail-in ballots has this information, and it’s publicly available. You have to go to each county’s website, but it’s there, and has been since long before the election. They’re not just sending out ballots willy-nilly, they keep track of every single one, to whom it was sent, and whether it was received. You’re not the first person to think this may be important information.
You should really take some time to learn about election processes and security, a lot of great minds have spent decades (mail-in voting started during the civil war) thinking about how to do it securely.
“I would think it is more useful to just look at the raw precinct-level vote distributions (e.g. like Fig. 2) rather than a Benford analysis of those data. ”
Even more useful, by the law of Occam’s’s razor , would be to simply pay attention to the numerous institutional evaluations of election integrity and take note of what they say about it all.
Unless of course, one is is more inclined to the epistemology of The End Times, Qanon and Alex Jones
bruce…”simply pay attention to the numerous institutional evaluations of election integrity and take note of what they say about it all”.
Consensus is not the solution, an investigation is required. 50% of US voters are being represented and have their doubts, enough of a reason to investigate.
“Consensus is not the solution, an investigation is required.”
An investigation is required if there’s evidence of fraud, and so far none has been presented in any of the 32+ cases that have been dismissed or withdrawn.
What you’re actually asking for is a “fishing expedition” and it’s just not going to happen. You can’t tell a court that your gut says a crime happened and if you could only go through the files of so-and-so you can prove your case. That doesn’t fly, you need to have evidence and simply saying “it smells fishy” doesn’t count.
Again, not evidence in a press conference, evidence in a court of law. Put up or shut up.
JOINT STATEMENT FROM ELECTIONS INFRASTRUCTURE GOVERNMENT COORDINATING COUNCIL & THE ELECTION INFRASTRUCTURE SECTOR COORDINATING EXECUTIVE COMMITTEES:
“The November 3rd election was the most secure in American history. Right now, across the country, election officials are reviewing and double checking the entire election process prior to finalizing the result.
“When states have close elections, many will recount ballots. All of the states with close results in the 2020 presidential race have paper records of each vote, allowing the ability to go back and count each ballot if necessary. This is an added benefit for security and resilience. This process allows for the identification and correction of any mistakes or errors. There is no evidence that any voting system deleted or lost votes, changed votes, or was in any way compromised.
“Other security measures like pre-election testing, state certification of voting equipment, and the U.S. Election Assistance Commission’s (EAC) certification of voting equipment help to build additional confidence in the voting systems used in 2020.
“While we know there are many unfounded claims and opportunities for misinformation about the process of our elections, we can assure you we have the utmost confidence in the security and integrity of our elections, and you should too. When you have questions, turn to elections officials as trusted voices as they administer elections.”
https://www.cisa.gov/news/2020/11/12/joint-statement-elections-infrastructure-government-coordinating-council-election
SHanslien
Thanks for the info.
J.-P. D.
SHanslein…another appeal to authority, does it never end?
Nate provided a link on the previous thread that coughed up this chart:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/El-kXOTX0AMcf98?format=png&name=small
The question is whether or not that represents reality?
It says ABC News at the bottom. Anyway I’d need a official timeline of tabulated votes received in Milwaukee. A link to that would be great. Otherwise you have to recognize that it could be a total fiction.
Significance??
“The question is whether or not that represents reality?”
I’ve seen that same “spike” in several close States. And, it occurred late at night!
That’s what needs to be investigated, because it’s just too suspicious to ignore.
“Thats what needs to be investigated, because its just too suspicious to ignore.”
As explained countless times in the news, this was simply votes being counted, and unfolded entirely as predicted weeks before.
In some states, like PA, the in-person votes were counted first and the Mail-in votes last.
The in-person were majority Trump votes, because he encouraged that. The mail-in were majority Biden votes.
Naturally, in Pa type states, there was an early lead for Trump followed by catch-up by Biden.
In Ohio it was the reverse. An early lead for Biden followed by catch-up by Trump. Because they counted Mail-in ballots FIRST.
Again no surprise.
If you are suspicious of Pa you should be equally suspicious of Ohio. Are you?
But really it is only suspicious to those who cannot understand basic logic and math who also favor Trump.
Nate, your problem is you have zero credibility. You have no problem distorting reality.
At this time, you have made 11 out the 28 comments. That exemplifies your usual desperation.
Nicely explained here, with lots of graphs
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/where-we-saw-red-and-blue-mirages-on-election-night/
“you have zero credibility. ‘
Extreme pot-kettle. I have never been banned.
And as usual, near zero information content.
I dopn’t get why people are suddenly so stupid. Trump asked his followers to vote on the day, not mail it in. Democrat mail votes were predicted well in advace of the election to outweigh Republican mail votes. And then we saw the results of that, in places where mail ballots were counted after on the day ballots. Well before election day it was noted that there were a record number of mail ballots cast. Most of these were from Democrats.
Conservatives are playing dumb to all this so they can make spurious accusations. This mendaciousness is very contagious!
barry…”Trump asked his followers to vote on the day, not mail it in. Democrat mail votes were predicted well in advace of the election to outweigh Republican…”
According to normal voting patterns, mail-in ballots should follow the regular voting pattern. As it stands, an enormous amount of mail-in ballots have been for Biden.
The election ballot is supposed to be filled in for not just the President but for other people running. Thousands of ballots were simply marked ‘Biden’ as if someone was in a hurry to stuff the ballot box.
If this election had been a landslide for Biden, as predicted, that would be another matter. As it stands, they are only separated by less than 0.5% in key states. It’s not fair to the 50% of US voters on the losing side if this situation is not investigated to the nth degree.
The fake media, especially CNN, do not want to see democracy work. They want to inaugurate Biden right now, depriving Trump of his right to investigate.
“According to normal voting patterns, mail-in ballots should follow the regular voting pattern. As it stands, an enormous amount of mail-in ballots have been for Biden.”
There’s your problem, there was nothing normal about this election. Between Trump making Republicans scared of mail-in ballots, the pandemic making Democrats scared of in-person voting, and two swing states using universal mail-in ballots for the first time, it’s amazing that it didn’t diverge further from normal.
“Thousands of ballots were simply marked Biden as if someone was in a hurry to stuff the ballot box.”
Weird that this bit of evidence wasn’t attached to a lawsuit. It’s because it’s not true.
“depriving Trump of his right to investigate.”
What? He’s been investigating and filing suits all over the place. He has a right to file them, but not a right to win (that’s where actual evidence comes in).
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ClintR, your forgot to translate your message.
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You too DREMT.
I’m still waiting for an intelligent commenter to explain to us why on the one hand
– the poor Trumping guy got his election stolen
while at the same time
– The Republicans (whose House and Senate ballots certainly will have been cast – in person or by mail – at the same time as those for the Trumping guy, enjoyed
– the rescue of their short majority in the Senate
– the reduction of the majority of the Democrats in the House.
How is that possible? Ignoring this is sheer paranoia.
*
The reason Republicans stay close to Trump is simply because if they break up with him, they will be disregarded by millions of his supporters in the next elections.
And the reason for Trump not to leave the White House is simply that if he doesn’t stay there for a few more years he will be prosecuted by the US Justice department for a large number of offenses.
And what some of you here possibly don’t know: The Trumping boy owes the German ‘Deutsche Bank’ 400 million US dollars … peanuts!
J.-P. D.
At the risk of not seeming as intelligent as yourself, I would simply point out that your analysis is irrelevant. I have no evidence of fraud beyond the fact that the long delay in counting ballots opens the door for fraudulent activity that might not be possible if the ballots are counted quickly. To the exact point you raise, without the fraud, if it did occur, the Republicans may have taken the majority in the house.
I think Biden did win. I think there was likely a significant amount of local and isolated fraud, and that is the evidence being presented in various media. But it is not large enough to overcome the huge advantage Democrat governors gained by mailing out ballots to every registered voter, and increasing the turnout which always helps Democrats. Casual voters tend to vote Democrat, and both side know that.
“to overcome the huge advantage Democrat governors gained by mailing out ballots to every registered voter, and increasing the turnout which always helps Democrats. Casual voters tend to vote Democrat, and both side know that.”
The more people that vote, the less Republican we get?
So R policies dont need to address voter concerns, they just need to supress more votes!
Not supposed to say this out loud.
I’d offer up to those that can’t grasp the human condition and try to obfuscate the facts by using their opinion- If Ohio had removed and blocked poll watchers – harassed officials and ignored their state legislature too allow for voting rules to be illegally changed days before Nov 3rd (thank you PA.) then folks would be hollering about Ohio too….. so there goes that silly comment from above –
Next the corny comment about how could it be possible that down ballot votes shifted for Conservatives while top of the line went the other way….. because only one vote was made on those ballots…. for soon to be prez sleepy slow Joe. now one just needs to ask why only one vote? hmmmm
Best to be confident in the vote than to whine and cry about it – so neither side should be complaining about further verifications being performed. Got nothing to hide – stop whining about things and let the validations progress…… I Don’t mind the further scrutiny where warranted , worst case it will turn a light on the issues encountered this cycle…. best case it can show more acceptance that the vote is valid
“or voting rules to be illegally changed days before Nov 3rd (thank you PA.) then folks would be hollering about Ohio too.. so there goes that silly comment from above ”
Rule changes unable to account for 60,000 vote difference.
“Next the corny comment about how could it be possible that down ballot votes shifted for Conservatives while top of the line went the other way.. because only one vote was made on those ballots. for soon to be prez sleepy slow Joe. now one just needs to ask why only one vote? hmmmm”
Wow, conspiracy theorists have weird answers for everything..
Wow those that have their heads buried up their sandbox…. have no answers but fake news-y comebacks “its a conspiracy” lol…. maturity at its best we see.
Point is, “because only one vote was made on those ballots. for soon to be prez sleepy” is not data, it is just speculation, and not logical for DEM fraud scenario.
“then folks would be hollering about Ohio too”
Oh, BS. If Ohio had voted for Biden it’d be getting hollered about just as much as PA.
Sure, for those Trump supporters that think it’s evil to do mass mail out of ballots in the time of COVID – well Utah did that, which Trump won, and are we hearing anyone holler about Utah?
No, no we are not.
In fact, many states blue and red adopted similar practises in the face of COVID, but Trump supporters are eerily quiet about those ones.
When Trump was behind in Arizona he said on election night that they needed to keep counting there. But when in front and Biden catching up in other states he tweeted “STOP THE COUNT.”
I see a two-tone pattern emerging…
What is said out loud and needs to be said out loud is that people who are not informed on the issues tend more often to vote Democrat, and more importantly, Republican voters tend to be more informed. In general, Democrats tend to lie about things people want hear, and Republicans tend to tell the truth about things people do not want to hear. For example, Trump and the Republicans in congress proved that tax cuts are good for the economy and improve the level of employment for everyone. Democrats want people to believe that tax cuts only benefit high wage earners. Resentment toward wealthy people is a good selling point for Democrat politicians event though it is wealthy investors who fuel the economy.
Trump proved that if you borrow a lot during good times you can temporarily force employment below its long term equilibrium.
Borrowing is not the way to build sustainable prosperity, it’s just populism.
Silly snowflake Svante, are you now pretending to be knowledgeable about the economy?
You need to let people know about your failings in basic science. Full disclosure.
160 Watts/m^2 can NOT produce 640 Watts/m^2, as you tried to claim.
You’re just an idiot, like the rest of your cult.
Glad to help.
Yes, a budget deficit will lower unemployment, ceteris paribus.
Predicted by John Maynard Keynes in 1936.
In the 1960s, Milton Friedman pointed out that it doesn’t work long term.
And input – output = heat.
640 W/m^2 – 480 W/m^2 = 160 W/m^2.
Silly snowflake Svante, are you STILL pretending to be knowledgeable about the economy?
You need to let people know about your failings in basic science. Full disclosure.
160 Watts/m^2 can NOT produce 640 Watts/m^2, as you tried to claim.
You’re just an idiot, like the rest of your cult.
Glad to help.
“who are not informed on the issues tend more often to vote Democrat”
Oh puleeez, they mostly have Dunning Kruger.
Informed by propaganda perhaps.
Lots of interviews of people at Trump rallies show they are horribly misinformed.
“Trump and the Republicans in congress proved that tax cuts are good for the economy and improve the level of employment for everyone. Democrats want people to believe that tax cuts only benefit high wage earners.”
OMG, proved
Great, if taxes are 0 we’ll have the best economy!
The particular tax cuts DID benefit high wage earners, and ballooned the deficit.
Rs used to care about the deficit.
I do think it’s important to keep taxes low, but you can’t do it by borrowing and hope “dynamic effects” will fix the deficit. It may take twenty years so you go bankrupt before it materializes.
Svante,
What do you make of this?
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S
Fed revenue as a % GDP. Hovers around 18% for decades. Only time we balanced the budget was when it was ~ 19% in 2000, after taxes were raised and defense budget was cut.
But, the budget as % GDP has grown because of entitlements. All else in the budget has gotten squeezed. Tax cuts just made that worse.
Taxes have been fairly flat but spending has gone up.
Yes, Clinton balanced the budget in his last few years.
Bush got 9/11 and Obama got the financial crisis so they had to borrow.
Obama was closing the gap, but then Trump cut taxes and increased spending when he should have been saving for the Covid-19 crisis. In essence borrowing to buy votes from silly people like Tim S.
The deficit is 18% of GDP for fiscal year 2020.
We have been nowhere near that since 1945.
If rates ever return to normal it means serious problems.
As a side note, you can not have trade deficits without borrowing, so the trade deficit with China is perfectly voluntary.
I don’t think I answered your question but I let off some steam.
No, makes sense to me.
I think my point was that taxes are low by historical standards, in fact they are too low to be sustainable.
Yes, either that or cut spending, but not now since we have a crisis on our hands.
binny…”Im still waiting for an intelligent commenter to explain to us why on the one hand…”
You’ll never understand, being from an authoritarian state like Germany. Just look at the crap being laid down by Merkel re covid.
It’s disappointing that the “debate” about eection fraud has gotten so much traction. I’ve had the opportunity to watch Fox news (and opinion) over the past couple of weeks, and their shameless promotion of speculation dressed as allegations is truly revolting.
The numerous lawsuits underway are so obviously a fishing expidition that it is incredible any sober-minded, rational person could fail to see it. The president has certainly helped understand the partisan motive of these legal challenges, asking for the count to cease in places where he was winning, and in the same speech to contiunue where he was losing. Let no one pretend that this is about maintaining the integrity of the electoral system.
It is a shame to see America so traduced by this abysmal circus. Even if every lawsuit succeeded, the votes attached to them are not sufficient in number to change the result of the election as called. The Republicans, who have been utterly craven in their capitulation to the worst of Trump’s behaviour over the last four yyears, have sunk to a new low by aiding and abetting this vain exercise in undermining the election.
And obviously, a great many conservatives in the US have no interest in character or integrity when they vote. They seem to prefer ‘alternative facts.’
Hi barry
Here is what I just have read in the Washington Post:
” Sixteen assistant U.S. attorneys specially assigned to monitor malfeasance in the 2020 election urged Attorney General William P. Barr on Friday to rescind his recent memorandum allowing investigators to publicly pursue allegations of “vote tabulation irregularities” in certain cases before results are certified, saying they had not seen evidence of any substantial anomalies.
In a letter — an image of which was shown to The Washington Post — the assistant U.S. attorneys told Barr that the release of his Monday memorandum — which changed long-standing Justice Department policy on the steps prosecutors can take before the results of an election are certified — ‘thrusts career prosecutors into partisan politics’. ”
Yeah.
And… I’m still not sure the Trumping guy will manage to understand.
But… It’s almost 2 a.m. now, and Trump’s pathological behavior is sure not to prevent me from getting a good night’s sleep.
J.-P. D.
The President’s primary duty is to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. The US has established institutions that ensure free and fair elections, and the electoral process seems to be working not well, but with few cases of deliberate vouter fraud. Nevertheless, large sections of the American population believe the system is rotten. I can hardly imagine a greater threat to democracy. If this distrust is allowed to develop further, it is only a matter of time before the United States will experience a deep constitutional crisis where the outcome is uncertain. Trump must bear the main responsibility for this development, he has been whining about rigged elections for years, this time Trump and his collaborators made completely unfounded allegations on an industrial scale. They knew what they were doing and the intention was precisely to destroy the population’s confidence in the electoral system. To me, this is treason and a blatant attack on the constitution, Putin could not have succeeded better.
In a well-functioning democracy, Trump had been impeached and this time convicted.
Bravo.
For those who don’t know, the actual election will take place with the Electoral College on December 14. Until then, each state has its own process for sending electors. If Trump defies the outcome at that point, then the people who have ignored the Crossfire Hurricane scandal in the Obama administration will something to complain about.
Great Post Tim sadly there some unbalanced minds on the lefty lib (and yes the right too)…. sad to see some ignorant folks posting that it is such a horrible thing to protect our votes from various violations…. next month when the real vote is counted….. and the verdict is in… should be pretty clear who the prez is.
but to whine and cry about contesting specific oddities … is just silly and pathetic…. (like cHillary Clinton….er like she said do not concede no matter what…. lmao)
Although I am Norwegian, I probably know more about the American constitution and the customs associated with American presidential elections than you. First, for decades it has been a tradition that when various numbercrunchers and election experts have “called” the election, the loser call the President elect and the election is practically over. And to take the next bullshit argument, everyone knows that the election in each state is not officially and legally declared until the individual state’s Secretariat of state has declared it. That is not the theme here. You have a president who systematically tears down confidence in all of American democracy. The only way he can win now is to get a sufficient number of theElectoral Colleges to vote against what their states decided.
If so, the USA is toast.
Sadly your comment about the current US president Trump is true… that clown does a lot of egotistical BS it is sad… but Biden too is a BSr and liar and likely won’t make it 2 years. Now to the part where you get it wrong. As a tourist you probably don’t know about Bush v Gore…and just how fast Gore called to concede the end count.
I am a tourist, and I seem to recollect that the networks called the election and then rescinded that call (perhaps with the exception of Fox?), so that in 2000 we did not have the same situation as 2020.
Reading the history just now to be sure, Gore privately conceded to Bush when the networks caled it, then rescinded when the networks rescinded their call.
The value of being a tourist is that we don’t come in with too much red/blue bias. It also helps make it clear when red/blue bias is talking.
You did not comment on Crossfire Hurricane, so let me help you. The normal way to handle a person who is suspected of being a foreign agent is a defensive briefing. The elected official or candidate is informed and told to remove the person from their team. The Obama administration did just the opposite. Rather than inform the campaign, they withheld the information. Based on fake evidence, they used the FBI to spy on the campaign in secret rather than inform the campaign to remove the person, Carter Page, who turned out to be working for the CIA, and they knew it. Trump has every right to be upset about that, and most importantly not trust Democrats.
Alvin Gore conceded to Busch on December 13th “reluctantly” . Yes it was different times, different political climate different players and different ‘irregularities’ the point is that all who paid attention Gore did not concede for over a month…while they hotly contested every vote in a bi-partisan and open process. We here in the US felt better about the votes after the process played out fairly.
Has Trump been an egotistical child-man? certainly does he pout and whine and bully too much tweeting certianly so… but he has done more the minorities that Biden ever has and ever will. the sad truth about the lefty agenda is lower standard of living for the poor through ‘well meaning’ taxes they don’t grasp economics of taxing the rich…. they can’t see past bumper sticker vote getting mottos like “paying one’s fair share” Sadly Biden has already announced in advance he will waste US $ on Paris Accord … pump $ into more failed Green Deals – again while well intentioned, it is just not thought out
The guy who said DEMS tend to be uninformed, is taken in and misinformed by various conspiracy theories promoted by the chief con artist.
“Based on fake evidence, they used the FBI to spy on the campaign ”
There was real evidence of interactions with Russian operatives (eg from Australian intelligence), and the FBI decided to investigate. There is no evidence that the President ordered them to investigate.
Only in the Trump era has the Attorney General and Justice Dept become the President’s personal attorney and attack dog.
“next month when the real vote is counted.. and the verdict is in should be pretty clear who the prez is.
but to whine and cry about contestin”
Whachu takin bout Willis? The REAL vote has been counted. There will be no change between now and next month.
LOL the Real vote has already…. most just need a slight refresher in the who elects the US Prez…. so we all wait..till the real vote comes – and is certified you bet it likely won’t change the out come much but so far there are count differences… and no where near the amount needed to keep racist , liar , cheater Biden out of office but sure would be good to have some better confidence in the system that’s what recounts are for… to allow the Alvin Gores and Trumps of the world to stew.
“There was real evidence of interactions with Russian operatives (eg from Australian intelligence), and the FBI decided to investigate. There is no evidence that the President ordered them to investigate.”
The solution here is a defensive briefing, not a spy campaign. FBI field notes from an oval office meeting quote Obama telling Comey to use “the right people”. These right people are ones who made a total of 17 unexplained errors.
“meeting quote Obama telling Comey to use ‘the right people’.
Nope. Fake news, as discussed.
“the who elects the US Prez. so we all wait..till the real vote comes and is certified you bet it likely wont change the out come much but so far”
It is Trump invention that we should wait til the elctors meet to decide who won. And you have swallowed it. That has always been a formality with no practical consequence.
But the delaying of the transition process has consequences for the country.
But obviously DT cares only about himself, not a bit about the country.
I think you missed the main point, Martin. Gore conceded when it was clear who had won – there was a few hundred votes in it. The networks withdrew their call for Gore and then Bush as the race tightened each way. Gore and Bush followed that lead.
It has been abundantly clear who has won for over a week now. The networks called it Nov 9. There is no possibility of that changing, even if all the standing lawsuits succeed, which they won’t. Theyt don’t cover enough votes. That has also been known for more than a week.
The delay in 2000 was due to a genuinely close call. This is not the case in 2020.
Republicans should not let Trump’s ego hold sway. The fisco is having a corrosive effect on US democracy, even while the outgoing administration is claiming that it is shoring it up. It’s pathetic, and damaging.
Furthermore, Bush was receiving the presidential briefing shortly after election day, even with the count in dispute and the race not called. National security came first. Country came before party.
Trump’s vanity is costing America. He is truly a loathsome, petulant, feckless delinquent. That Republicans are supporting him in this pretty much traitorous.
I agree with ba. That is word for word what I would have written.
Yes.
This is an election circus. But the circus is entirely caused by angry, nasty leftists like yourself, for whom the truth is not important — only political power is important.
From a high level point of view, WAY over your head, there are good reasons to believe the vote count was “fixed” in some urban cities to favor Joe Biden. Such as Philadelphia, and Detroit.
The Republicans did very well in this election EXCEPT for Trump, which is a very unusual in any election, especially because Trump was very popular among Republicans.
Joe Biden barely campaigned, as if he knew he was going to win in advance. When Trump caught COVID, it might have been a good Biden strategy to stay in the basement playing it safe and criticizing Trump for being careless, not wearing masks and holding crowded rallies. But when Trump recovered and started campaigning like a man half his age, drawing huge crowds. Any other opponent would have stepped up his campaign. But Joe Biden barely campaigned at all. Who does that?
Back in 2016, when I launched my politics blog, I predicted that the Russian Collusion claim was a hoax, most likely invented by Hillary Clinton to distract from the stolen DNC emails. Four years later we know that was true. You probably don’t know, but smart honest, people do.
This year I will be publishing an article on Monday about 2020 election fraud. I’m sure it doesn’t exist in your mind, because you have a closed leftist mind. You probably don’t even recognize that the Biden family is guilty of influence peddling, and Joe got a share, and that makes Joe Biden the most corrupt man to ever win the popular vote for president.
because the smarmy leftist-biased media pretended nothing ever happened. I’m sure your head is in the sand on Biden family corruption . I wrote about the subject at least six times, starting in summer 2019.
The main problem Trump has is how to convince judges or justices to force some states to repeat their elections within the next month. That’s very little time. And about half of judges /justices are liberals who would never hurt their own party, so forget about justice from them. If this voter fraud is not attacked by the Trump team, it will repeat in Georgia (that’s a U.S. state) in January 2021, and in every future U.S. national election/
My politics blog: http://www.ElectionCircus.blogspot.com
stay away nasty Barry, I just cleaned up there
Everyone is still waiting for concrete evidence of widespread voter fraud. We’ve been waiting for months, ever since Trump said there would be.
I’m forced to stay away from your website, as my browser alerted me that it is unsafe to visit.
!
Your connection is not private
Attackers might be trying to steal your information from http://www.electioncircus.blogspot.com (for example, passwords, messages or credit cards). Learn more
NET::ERR_CERT_COMMON_NAME_INVALID
“repeat their elections within the next month.”
OMG.
Guys. Your candidate was a looza!
Oh well. It happens to all of us.
Get over it. Move on.
Go back to getting your reality TV from the Kardashians.
BTW. Trump just tweeted that Biden won, followed by lots of BS about cheating. Hes still that sore loser kid that we all met in 3rd grade.
BUT, looks like hes going to take his ball and go home.
Greene
” From a high level point of view, WAY over your head… ”
Hmmmmh.
No matter where I see your comments, no matter what you write about, such stuff always gives the impression of an arrogant person who greatly overestimates himself.
*
” … there are good reasons to believe the vote count was ‘fixed’ in some urban cities to favor Joe Biden. Such as Philadelphia, and Detroit. ”
This is not a sign of intelligence, but of a mix of stubbornness and paranoia.
In my native tongue we write in such cases: “Plus bête, tu meurs.”
*
Btw: SSL_ERROR_BAD_CERT_DOMAIN
If you lack the ability to clear analysis, so try at least to get low technical details working fine.
J.-P. D.
Listen jerk, I’ve been voting conservative all my life. This is not a question of Republican or Democrat, left or right. It is about the foundation of the Western liberal democracies. And I see that you still have faith in a Trump victory. As long as it is about the election, he has long since lost. And you poor cannon fodder boys still believe in this. It is always tragic to see the soldiers still fighting while the general waves the white flag.
barry…”Its disappointing that the debate about eection fraud has gotten so much traction. Ive had the opportunity to watch Fox news (and opinion) over the past couple of weeks, and their shameless promotion of speculation dressed as allegations is truly revolting”.
Barry…you’re out of touch. Fox has recently pulled their support of Trump and they suspended Judge Jeanine Pirro for defending Trump re election fraud. I first noted their switching bias on election night and wondered what was happening.
On election night Fox was the most neutral I’ve ever seen it, particularly the news anchors. CNN by comparison had a clearer bias on the night.
But after election night the entire Fox narrative was about election fraud. Reporting gave credence to the numerous lawsuits while other networks pointed out that they lacked evidentiary basis. Fox continues to be a faithful voice for the Republican party.
The latest legal efforts have been a circus, with some of the acts too bizarre for even Fox to swallow, such as the allegation that the Dominion voting software was commissioned by Hugo Chavez.
The ‘conservatives’ who continue to dwell in Trump’s alternative reality don’t get enough succour from Fox, incredibly, and are drifting to the more extreme right ‘news’ services, like Newsmax.
Yes, Newsmax has remained faithful to Trump, despite the fact that he has been sitting in his garret tweeting about the election and failing to do his job for two weeks. Not to mention the fact he has no chance of overturning the results of the election around, even if all standing lawsuits succeeded. Newsmax, of course, hasn’t called the election for Biden, and so the rabid Trump supporters have gravitated to where their delusions can flourish.
I have to say Biden won get over it. It is not even close. Trump’s down playing of the virus was/is horrible.
Trump deserved to loose.
In Poland, the Constitution is bypassed and laws passed by the parliament are not published. Covid takes a bloody toll. I hope the US will not go this way.
The sheep are so afraid they will do whatever their masters command.
Centuries of fighting for human rights, down the drain.
ClintR
I am not expecting any intelligent or thoughtful answer from you. You are not very smart nor do you seem to possess logical thought process.
So I am wondering why you think trying to slow the spread of a virus that has proven to be deadly makes you think that it is somehow against human rights? You make some stupid comments so I am sure you will not answer in a thoughtful or intelligent manner.
Norman, I don’t know how you got so full of yourself. With no more talent than you have, it must be a mental disorder.
Possibly from too many flu shots….
ClintR
I wish you would surprise me with a little intelligence. I wish you were not as dull minded as I can clearly see you are. Your response was lame and low brow intellect. You really are not very impressive. Had you responded intelligently it would have been interesting. As it stands you will continue to post your low intellect responses and prove to others how ignorant you actually are. Like I keep saying you are not a smart person. Very dull and dim I would say.
Norm, that’s only about 100 words. You can do better. Let’s see a 500-word spew of your usual crap — insults, false accusations, and righteous indignation.
Go for it. Impress your other cult members.
ClintR
Fitting response to your posts, Duh. I don’t think you are capable of intelligent thought.
I agree Norman, you don’t think.
The dictatorship is born slowly, step by step. Without strict adherence to the law, it is possible.
It is very bad for the country when one party takes over the judiciary.
You may not agree with me, but I will to defend to your death my right to disagree.
In grown-up socieities the adults recognize that extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures. They aren’t so terminally self-centred that they disagree with prioritising health in a pandemic, nor so witlessly paranoid to imagine their liberty is being permanently abridged.
IOW, never let a crisis go to waste.
barry, after you and Norman finish telling yourselves how brilliant you are, remember you both tested positive for “idiot”.
We can schedule a re-test, if you want.
Sorry Clint, but even with a thorough instruction manual you would not be able to interpret an idiot test.
Rune, we love idiot trolls from Norway.
barry…”In grown-up socieities the adults recognize that extraordinary times call for extraordinary measures’.
In grown-up socieities, STUPID adults recognize that STUPID extraordinary times call for STUPID extraordinary measures.
ren…”the Constitution is bypassed and laws passed by the parliament are not published. Covid takes a bloody toll. I hope the US will not go this way”.
That’s what Trump is fighting at the moment. The Democrats have been trying for 4 years to remove a democratically elected President and they began with a lie that Trump colluded with the Russians to fix the 2016 election.
The Democrats represent the politically-correct who think they have the answers for everything and that the rest of us should follow their beliefs without questioning them.
Covid is not so bad that it should be referred to as ‘bloody’. Even in populations where the number of deaths is higher, it never exceeds 0.06%. That’s 6/100ths of 1%. Trump has advised people not to worry about the virus and he is right.
In California where there has been a virtual lockdown, the Governor was caught partying with friends, none of whom were wearing masks. Those in power know this is a scam and they are playing power games with people with no evidence to back it.
So you’ve finally come around to agree that COVID is a virus. I suppose that must have been right around the time Trump said he caught it.
Salvatore,
We haven’t seen you on this blog for ages. How are your predictions for a cooling world looking?
Don’t be a unpolite bitch, we all have missed Salvatore.
Hi Salvatore
100 % agreed!
J.-P. D.
salvatore…”I have to say Biden won get over it. It is not even close”.
Sorry to hear you say that Salvatore, I have regarded you as a thoughtful person. It is extremely close with regard to the number of votes in key states separating Biden and Trump. If it was as you describe, it would be over.
As for covid, we are being subjected to idiots who cannot find the virus using the standard method that requires a virus to be viewed on an electron microscope and are creating a phantom virus based on genetic material with no known source. This is far worse than the anthropogenic global warming scam.
Do you have a split personality? 8 mintues after you submitted this post you wrote another:
“Covid is not so bad that it should be referred to as ‘bloody’. Even in populations where the number of deaths is higher, it never exceeds 0.06%. That’s 6/100ths of 1%. Trump has advised people not to worry about the virus and he is right.”
Good to see you again, Salvatore.
Yes, an inconvenient truth for a Trump supporter.
Means he can do similarly when his climate predictions fail.
How are the hurricanes this year. You seem very quiet on this . Normally you are crowing about how few Cat x hurricanes have landed in the US.
(ignoring all others)
Laura hit Louisianna as a CAT4
Delta hit Louisianna as a CAT2
Eta hit Nicaragua as a CAT4
Iota hit Nicaragua as a CAT4
(landfall outside the US doesn’t usually count on this blog)
Which means the exact opposite if you translate it from ClintR’s lunatic reference frame.
ClintR says:
“Rune, we love idiot trolls from Norway.”
Thanks Clint, being a called an idiot by you indicates I’m on the right track, you just gave me a huge self-confidence boost
That’s why we love you Norwegian idiots. You never get anything right.
Rune Valaker
” … being a called an idiot by you indicates Im on the right track, you just gave me a huge self-confidence boost ”
150 % agreed from my point of view.
Maybe a word within comment this might be of some interest to you:
http://www.drroyspencer.com/2020/11/uah-global-temperature-update-for-october-2020-0-54-deg-c/#comment-550467
J.-P. D.
Bindidon is unable to face reality. He has been instructed numerous times that the designation “idiot” comes when one rejects reality.
Bindidon rejects reality.
Here’s why Trump has a huge problem. In 2000, there was a dispute over one county in one state, Miami – Dade, FL.
Biden now has 306 of the Electoral College, he needs 270 to be the President.
If Trump manages to turn AZ (11) and GA (16), Biden still has 279. Biden can even lose NV (6) and still has 273. If Trump turns PA (20), it is not enough, even if Trump turns GA (16) Biden still has 270.
AZ and GA are traditionally republican states with a republican administration, in AZ Trump has given up suing, in GA there is a recount where Trump leads with approx. 14,000 votes. Recounts usually lead to the relocation of a few hundred voices. The largest ever was 2000 votes in Miami – Dade which is a very populous county.
If Trump turns PA (20) and one of the battle ground states MI (16) or WI (10) it still isn’t enough, he needs all three.
So there must be a hell of a lot wrong with the American electoral system for Trump to win.
Rune, you must be worried if you’re altready starting the spin….
Spin? Is there anything wrong with this lineup of the various options Trump has? If so, it would be nice if you could contribute corrections.
If not, your comment seems to be spin.
You seem to be concerned that Trump might win, even with so much stacked against him. Likely you really know there were fraud ballots involved. You’re hoping the fraud works. If it somehow fails to work, your plan is to then claim the system has “a hell of a lot wrong with” it.
>>>Likely you really know there were fraud ballots involved.
How did you know, I’m exposed, but I confess if the alternative is to be subjected to a third degree interrogation by Clint and Gulliani. Here is the case;
-15,433 votes for Trump is placed under my mother’s mattress in a nursing home, I picked them up from the election in Georgia in June last year.
-187,098 votes, also for Trump, that I picked up in Pennsylvania I have hidden in the wheelhouse of the Titanic, it cost me a hell of a lot of money to get them down there, as You know it’s more than 4000 meters deep.
But that’s all I’ve done in this election, nothing more, I swear.
And Biden is still president with 270 of the Electoral College.
“Likely you really know there were fraud ballots”
Sure, blog guy Rune from Sweden knows stuff, that the Trump team is unable to dig up.
Brilliant Clint!
Troll Nate, “blog guy Rune” claims to be Norwegian.
But, being an idiot, you never get anything right.
Norway ok,
So that was headquarters for the US voter fraud operation?
You’re still delusional!
You are correct about one thing. There is something wrong, and that is the practice of dumping unsolicited ballots into the population. An absentee ballot has to be requested and has better control than just sending ballots to every address in the system where there is now, or used to be, a registered voter. This is precisely the problem that has lead to the IMPRESSION that fraud has occurred even if it has not. It was not ever necessary to mail out so many ballots. The absentee system works very well. Some people such as myself are signed up to always receive an absentee ballot.
None of the close states did that.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2020/politics/vote-by-mail-states/
Utah, the reddest of all red states, has been doing universal mail-in voting for years. Are you saying that all those elections were corrupt?
Or do you just not understand how mail-in voting works? Yes, that seems more likely.
Rune, I cant believe you’re that stupid. The Pennsylvanian postal worker did not drop his claims, as he posted so himself on YouTube. Go run back behind the robes of your fake news priests.
Interesting story. Postal worker had his affadavit written for him by ‘Prokect Veritas’, a group that seems to be behind spurious claims, offering money to people to help them cast the claims.
Postal worker’s claims are questionned, and he walks back a lot of it, signs a new affadavit which turns facts into allegations, and acknowledges he didn’t actually hear fully what he said he’d heard.
He recants his recant, and is flimed by ‘Stop the Steal’ and again by Project Veritas, who it seems recruited him in the first place.
So it’s this guy’s word against another guy’s word.
Also, it seems that ewven if what he says is true, it amounts to a handful of ballots, which undercuts the allegation of what he thinks he heard in the first place.
https://factcheck.thedispatch.com/p/did-a-postal-worker-witness-ballot
Looks to me like interested parties are fishing for any and all sound bytes they can to hunt down widespead election fraud.
And they have pretty much zero evidence as of today.
Im sorry your guy lost the election. And it really wasnt that close.
Now its time to get a grip on this reality. And move on. Like half the country did 4 y ago, and every 4 years for 200 + years.
Its just the way democracy works.
Half the country moved on 4 years ago? You must be living in an alternate universe.
Yes, 4 y ago Hillary conceded the result on election night. DEMS unhappily accepted the result. And the transition began immediately. There were later protests about his policies.
There is simply no comparison to what is happening now. False Equivalence.
DTs own Justice Dept appointed a Special Prosecutor to investigate Russian collusion/interference that grew out of the FBI investigation. Indeed several people were prosecuted and were found guilty. And yes, not surprisingly, congress investigated as well.
He THEN abused his power wrt to Ukraine and was indeed impeached. That was all HIS doing.
Alternate universe.
Bush stole the election.
Bush did 9/11.
Bush lied about WMD.
Diebold stole the election for Bush.
Trump is a Russian agent.
Trump likes to get peed on.
Trump impeached over a phone call.
Kavanaugh is a rapist.
Violent riots are peaceful.
All Republicans are Nazis.
Trump: I think Democrats cheated.
Media: THIS IS UNPRECEDENTED.
Someone I know actually has a Resist license plate.
Get bent.
Most not found in my universe, but yes there are extreme views on both sides.
But the main problem right now, as I see it, is that the President lives in an extremist alternate reality, and his supporters seem willing to go there with him there.
He is pushing a narrative that the election was rigged, full of fraud, and that he was the true winner.
Poll shows that more than half of Republicans believe this narrative.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/526464-half-of-republicans-in-new-poll-say-rigged-election-was-stolen-from-trump
But thus far, there is no actual evidence to support this narrative.
I was told by another poster that Rep voters are ‘better informed’.
Then how the hell are they getting ‘informed’?
Anyone on the right, according to you, is an extremist. Who do you identify as extreme on the left?
I’m afraid the stupid one is You. The postman first issued an affidavit where he confirmed that he had been told by superiors to backdate, then he issued a new affidavit where he had not heard this anyway. What he says on You Tube has no legal interest. How much do you think this witness is worth in a lawsuit?
PS Hey Rune! Don’t forget to tithe 10% to the big guy!
>>>>PS Hey Rune! Don’t forget to tithe 10% to the big guy!
Do not worry RW, I already had an agreement of 16% in 2017, and if Joe wins the election, the percentage scale will be unrecognizable. Just like Trump, he also runs and wins elections with 110% or 140% of the popular vote.
RW and Clint.
Believe me, I have been awake all night, I have been thinking and pondering, back and forth for several days. I have not had a thought about climate change or what to do with my basements that is full of water, and just that has nothing to do with climate, I forgot to clean the drain. I have sacrificed all my thinkingcapasety to satisfy you two, now I expect thanks, I have solved the problem, what is required is a constitutional amendment:
Ammentment 28
The eternal president and the light of the universe, Donald John Trump, has the right to override any constitutional provision, any constitutional amendment and whatever else he feels for.
Suggest it to Lindsey Graham, he will certainly take it straight to the Senate Judiciary Committee for further discussion and confirmation, unless he runs straight over to Trump to get it sanctioned to avoid all this unnecessary paperwork.
The left is telling us if we don’t certify the election for Biden then there will be violence. I choose violence.
I think you have it backwards Stephen.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/11/18/amid-violent-threats-arizonas-top-election-official-urges-trump-to-halt-abhorrent-election-misinformation/amp/
Ah, the monolithic left has spoken has it? I wonder where you heard this voice that speaks for all the lefties?
Ah, the monolithic left has spoken has it?
Oh yes the thespian “Ah” pronounced with raised eyebrows and pedantic index finger. I suppose you fancy yourself as Ian McKellen or Alec Guinness.
I wonder where you heard this voice that speaks for all the lefties?
It’s called the news media ABC CBS NPR MSNBC NPR PBS New York Times, Washington Post and lots of local venues, it really is a long list. Oh who said it? Camilla Harris said the the protests will go on as they should.
Businesses in the U.S. are boarding up their windows in anticipation of riots. I know this by observation not the media.
“Businesses in the U.S. are boarding up their windows in anticipation of riots. I know this by observation not the media.”
Sure thing, point us to some articles about that in NYT or any of the others.
Riots from Left about what? Biden winning the election?!
Most political killing these last few years have been due to far right extremists, as noted by the FBI.
Gee, Steve. You’re a lot less of an asshole in person. Guess when there’s a safe distance you’re less afraid. So you don’t like my tone, huh?
I don’t like your lack of substantiation. Not one link to the monolithic voice of the left promising violence if Biden isn’t elected.
Because it doesn’t exist. But we get baseless demonisation of the left from lackwits on an hourly basis. It’s easier on the brain for dumbass conservatives to see life like a Marvel movie. That’s not all conservatives, just the loud ones.
I’ve always taken pot shots at you. On the old Random International forum I said you pretend to take the high road, but are in there kicking, biting and eye gouging along with everyone else. I haven’t changed my spots and neither have you.
I like the internet forums, you get to say what you want without anyone interrupting. Unless you’re banned of course, and I’ve been banned a few places but not for being an asshole.
They bordered up the White House and some shops nearby because of the BLM protesters. But nothing came of it.
I didn’t think anyone would riot. It was nice to see some dancing after the election was called for Biden.
You do know someone in the US is 10 times more likely to be killed by a rightie than a leftie for ideological reasons?
“The data show three notable trends. First, right-wing attacks and plots accounted for the majority of all terrorist incidents in the United States since 1994. In particular, they made up a large percentage of incidents in the 1990s and 2010s. Second, the total number of right-wing attacks and plots has grown substantially during the past six years. In 2019, for example, right-wing extremists perpetrated nearly two-thirds of the terrorist attacks and plots in the United States, and they committed over 90 percent of the attacks and plots between January 1 and May 8, 2020. Third, although religious extremists were responsible for the most fatalities because of the 9/11 attacks, right-wing perpetrators were responsible for more than half of all annual fatalities in 14 of the 21 years during which fatal attacks occurred.”
https://www.csis.org/analysis/escalating-terrorism-problem-united-states
“As is typically the case, the extremist-related
murders of 2019 were overwhelmingly (90%) linked to
right-wing extremists. All but one of the incidents had
ties to right-wing extremism.”
https://www.adl.org/media/14107/download
“Businesses in the U.S. are boarding up their windows in anticipation of riots. I know this by observation not the media.”
I see now this is anecdotal evidence…
My anecdotal evidence is the opposite of yours. I see no such thing in my state. Where are you seeing it?
I think the point here is that a key chapter in the Authoritarian Playbook is to gin up FEAR. Fear of street violence. Fear of the ‘other’.
All Authoritarians have done it successfully. Hitler did this by having his militia, the Brown shirts, go out and get in street fights with Communist protesters/marchers.
The public were naturally fearful.
Only HE could put stop to this violence in the streets, because they were being encouraged by him!
Not saying Trump is Hitler, but its the same playbook.
The rather minimal violence happening in the streets is being exaggerated. In reality it is clashes between Leftists and Rightists, who are being encouraged by Trump.
But by far, the most serious political violence is coming from far right extremists, who have committed mass murder in eg black churches and synagogues, and planned kidnapping and murder of DEM leaders.
nate…”All Authoritarians have done it successfully. Hitler did this by having his militia, the Brown shirts, go out and get in street fights with Communist protesters/marchers”.
You are really scraping the bottom with your comparison of Trump to Hitler. If you knew anything about the motivations of Hitler and how crazy he was and you still made such a comparison you’d be a stupid troll.
Come to think of it, you are s stupid troll.
“Not saying Trump is Hitler, but its the same playbook.”
Learn to read, Gordon.
I see now this is anecdotal evidence…
My anecdotal evidence is the opposite of yours. I see no such thing in my state. Where are you seeing it?
A suburb of Milwaukee. George Floyd died in police custody on Monday night, by Friday there were, according to CBS news, riots in over 34 U.S. cities – that didn’t just happen. There were reports of pallets of bricks put out for the rioters – could be bullshit. I saw a bank with boarded up windows after the Jacob Blake shooting in Kenosha. Some of the boarded up windows were places closed due to the covid 19 shutdown. And Camilla Harris did say the protests should continue. She knows they will turn into riots.
The magnification, the “ginning up FEAR. Fear of street violence. Fear of the ‘other’” is working on you.
Meanwhile the real threat of harm to the public, the one that has caused 250,000 deaths, has been consistently minimized, downplayed, botched by the administration.
“And Camilla Harris did say the protests should continue. She knows they will turn into riots.”
Well historically such large protest movements end mainly in two ways:
a. Real reforms are enacted. Like in the case of Womens suffrage or Civil Rights movements.
b. An authoritarian crackdown, w/ many killed, injured, locked away, as in the case of the Chinese democracy movement, Tianamen Square.
Which do you prefer?
barry…”Not saying Trump is Hitler, but its the same playbook.
Learn to read, Gordon”.
Your message was clear, you are mentioning a President who has done no real harm to people to a dictator who murdered 12 million Jews and Slavs.
You need to learn to read yourself. Go read what Hitler did, not only to Jews and Slavs, but to his own people who disagreed with him.
I didn’t make the comment.
Learn to read.
My post from November 19, 2020 at 10:31 PM
said CBS reported more than 34 protests across the country just a few days after George Floyd died in police custody. For some reason this screenshot image at postimage dot com wouldn’t resolve yesterday:
https://i.postimg.cc/639CbXS5/image.png
Four days after Floyd died protest & riots sprang up in Iowa, Nebraska, and 32 other places. My opinion is the riots were in place ready to go before George Floyd got up that morning. The organizers were waiting for the first incident to occur and George Floyd was it.
Can’t follow the conversation?
“The left is telling us if we don’t certify the election for Biden then there will be violence.”
Did you have a link to substantiate this claim, or did you chime in here just to do some eye-gouging?
“My opinion is the riots were in place ready to go before George Floyd got up that morning. The organizers were waiting for the first incident to occur and George Floyd was it.”
Sure. Events and actions of millions of people are orchestrated by puppeteers… is something you think is plausible.
“A conspiracy theory is an explanation for an event or situation that invokes a conspiracy by sinister and powerful groups, often political in motivation,[2][3] when other explanations are more probable.[4][5]”
Most of the rest of humanity thinks it it is highly probable that the latest and most egregious, in a long series, of acts of police misconduct against black people, could easily inflame the passions of hundreds of thousands of people, who see this act as the last straw.
Steve nominates Kamala Harris as the voice speaking for the left promising violence if Biden isn’t elected. Implies she’s promising it along with the protests.
Let’s get a quote.
“We must always defend peaceful protest and peaceful protesters. We should not confuse them with those looting and committing acts of violence, including the shooter who was arrested for murder.
And Make no mistake, we will not let these vigilantes and extremists derail the path to justice.”
Calling for violence, huh? Maybe her boss has done it.
“Shooting in the streets of a great American city is unacceptable. I condemn this violence unequivocally. I condemn violence of every kind by any one, whether on the left or the right.”
So the leader and deputy leader of the socialist left are not calling for violence if the venerated leader is not elected. Rather, they are condemning violence.
So who is this monolithic voice speaking for the left in the US calling for violence if Biden isn’t elected?
Or did some conservative twit blurt out yet more BS on the internet?
“Presidential Transition Live Updates: Trump Invites State Lawmakers to White House in Bid to Subvert Election” NYT
He desperately hopes to convince Michigan legislators to overrule the voters, and appoint their own electors.
Good idea?
I recall the many R Congressmen during the Impeachment Trial stating that ‘the people should decide’ in the upcoming election, whether to remove Trump.
Shameless.
nate…”I recall the many R Congressmen during the Impeachment Trial stating that the people should decide in the upcoming election, whether to remove Trump”.
The opinions are split down the middle and so close it’s uncanny. Let democracy work!!!
Yeah, Gordon mised the point entirely.
If Trump is pushing legislators to choose electors that weren’t chosen by the majority in a given state, then that is of course ANTI-democratic.
barry…”If Trump is pushing legislators to choose electors that werent chosen by the majority in a given state, then that is of course ANTI-democratic”.
I don’t agree with the US system but the electors are free to vote according to their conscience. Based on the rules as they stand, I see nothing wrong with Trump appealing to them.
You continue to misunderstand.
The issue is not about electors chosen by the people changing their minds and “voting with their conscience.”
The issue is about state legislatures choosing different (pro-Trump) electors against the will of the people.
Either way, you are content to have the will of the people overturned by “the US system.” So don’t pretend that you want democracy to work.
barry…”Either way, you are content to have the will of the people overturned by the US system.”
I would agree if it was clear Biden had won by a significant margin. Till the last 6 or 7 states were counted, Trump was leading. Then, mysteriously, several of those states stopped counting for the night. Why? That’s basically what is being challenged, that mysterious processes have occurred that need to be investigated.
As a Canadian it’s none of my business. However, I’d like to see this exercise in democracy extended till a proper investigation is done. I’d also like to see fascist media like CNN kicked up their perverted butts. One of them, Toobin, was caught masturbating on a break. He did not even bother doing it in private, he did it behind a camera because he thought the camera was off. This is a married man with a family.
They are all sleezebags at CNN and this is basically where you are getting your information.
I get my news from the BBC, Australia’s ABC, Fox, CNN, Time, The Atlantic, The Independent, and a lot of local US papers that are online, regarding the post-election fiasco.
Biden has won by more than 10 000 votes in even the closest state.
No recount has ever shifted a result by more than a few hundred votes. The Georgia recount changed the margin by 496 votes.
Biden has won by a significant margin – Trump would have to flip 3 key states to overturn the results. It aint going to happen. Trump won’t be able to flip even one.
Out of about 30 cases so far rules, the Trump administration has won one – to let poll watchers stand closer to the counters – and lost the rest.
Stop reading Newsmax and whatever other extreme right news service. All they do is parrot Trump and his “elite” legal team of people who aren’t election litigators, and who come unprepared and without evidence.
Stop reading facebook for news.
And in true Trumpian fashion, you’ve got it completely the wrong way around. No battleground states stopped ballot counting overnight:
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/nov/04/facebook-posts/battleground-states-did-not-stop-counting-votes-el/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/11/04/fact-check-no-vote-counting-democrat-led-states-hasnt-stopped/6163978002/
Furthermore, it was the Trump campaign which called for counting to stop the day after election day.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/04/trump-files-lawsuit-stop-michigan-vote-count-temporarily/6164647002/
No lawsuit has been filed claiming that any state stopped counting votes on election night.
Seriously, Gordon, where do you get your news from?
Do you have a link for what you’ve just claimed about the election? Or does it come from facebook? Because it is the opposite of reality, as usual.
This symbolizes the legitimacy of the case the Trump team is trying to make.
https://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/5IWRz7FAzijGCaBnj13Ahw–/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTk2MDtoPTY0MA–/https://s.yimg.com/uu/api/res/1.2/wc2UAxxKM_nMfX0YPhsHLw–~B/aD00MDAwO3c9NjAwMDthcHBpZD15dGFjaHlvbg–/https://media.zenfs.com/en/the_independent_635/a1141de58d04326acb1e4560f6bf07d0
nate…”This symbolizes the legitimacy of the case the Trump team is trying to make”.
They have not revealed their case(s) yet, no good lawyers would do so before appearing in court. As I told you, this is all heading to Supreme Court.
Your ignorant fool, no lawyer can even arrive in court before he has shown the court and the other party the evidence. And no, SCOTUS will not process any cases unless they are able to tip the election. Now GA and AZ are lost for Trump. If he is to win, he must take the lead in PA, MI and WI, ie all three states, and he is not on track to take any of them.
All he has left now is to openly try to get the Republican lawmakers to change the rules by electing other members of the electoral college so that they will vote against the will of the people. Even Idi Amin and Robert Mugabe would have refrained from such a move.
“As I told you, this is all heading to Supreme Court.”
Yes, and as I told you, you are a highly ignorant and confused Canadian.
You don’t get to declare fraud in court without having facts to support it.
You don’t get to go to the SC with just a conspiracy theory, or while on a fishing expedition.
Nate says:
November 20, 2020 at 8:43 AM
As I told you, this is all heading to Supreme Court.
Yes, and as I told you, you are a highly ignorant and confused Canadian.
You dont get to declare fraud in court without having facts to support it.
You dont get to go to the SC with just a conspiracy theory, or while on a fishing expedition.”
The supreme court ruled to stop the counting December12th 2000 – As they say in New York, you can look it up. Does Trump have evidence of massive fraud? The Duck Test says it looks like fraud. Did the Supreme Court apply the Duck test in 2000? It was a 7-2 ruling that the recounts were illegitimate. If it goes to the supreme court, Ginsberg won’t be there to be one of the dissenters.
I expect Biden will become officially President Elect December 14th and sworn in this coming January. Investigation of fraud in the 2020 election will continue for a long time.
Of the lawsuits initiated by the Trump campaign, none are alleging widespread voter fraud, and many of the lawyers when asked by the judges, have specifically stated they are not pleading a case of election fraud.
The ducks stop quacking when they go to court. How does that float, do you think? Looks to me like the endless drone about fraud, which began in June this year, is just the Trumpian method of pushing a lie in the hopes it will catch on (which it has), and nothing to do with a serious legal challenge.
One or two conservative groups have gone to court alleging fraud, but they have either withdrawn their cases or been dismissed.
https://time.com/5914377/donald-trump-no-evidence-fraud/
There’s no reliable evidence of fraud, Steve. Cases are being thrown out – 30 have already been dismissed or been withdrawn. People are being paid to produce affidavits. Now that quacks like a duck.
The reason people should be rooting for Trump is the following. Sleazy Joe does not look too well, maybe early onset. If his health fails, Kamla Harris will be President. The thought of that dizzy bitch being president, with her homeys AOC and company, should be enough to scare anyone straight.
Ok so we’ve established that you are a sexist, racist, clueless Canadian, who claims he is a Leftist??
All DEM women of color are equivalent, riggght?
False. Harris is a former District Attorney.
Biden chose her because their moderate views are well matched.
nate…”All DEM women of color are equivalent, riggght?”
Nothing to do with colour, I base my disrespect for her on comments she has made that I regard as anti-democratic.
Harris represents the politically-correct to an extreme. She’s the type, who with power, would shut down the basic rights of US citizens. In the US, the Constitution guarantees citizens the right to bear arms. Harris wants to shut that down while ignoring her brothers who use illegal guns to mug and terrorize people, mainly their own.
Riots took place, when the cops killed George Floyd, a black. I agree that the death was unnecessary and represented police brutality. However, the number of black killed by blacks far outweighs the number killed by police by a long shot. In fact, police killed far more whites in 2020 than blacks.
Harris is a brain-dead idiot who sees what she wants to see and feels everyone else should see the same thing.
“Harris is a brain-dead idiot who sees what she wants to see and feels everyone else should see the same thing.”
Gordon, what rot.
Nothing you mentioned puts her in that box. So you still must be an ignorant racist homophobic asshole. Im shocked that you also like Trump.
nate…I did not say I liked Trump I just dislike the Democrats a whole lot more after 4 years of absolute bs over losing in 2016.
They are the types to throw around a word like homophobia trying to prevent criticism of homosexuality and its excesses by shaming people into offering their opinions. A phobia is an extreme, unrealistic fear. No one has ever explained how homosexuality and phobia are related. I certainly don’t fear them but I’ll be damned if I am going to accept them as being normal just because the politically-correct says they are.
You and the Democrats are a load of sickos posturing as caring, compassionate people. You all need extended, psychotherapy, but I doubt it would do any good with such warped minds.
A phobia is an irrational fear or aversion.
“I’ll be damned if I am going to accept them as being normal”
What does ‘normal’ mean here? In the majority? Or something else?
“…homosexuality and its excesses…”
Yes, you’re homophobic.
barry…”Yes, youre homophobic”.
I won’t try to get into a discussion on this in Roy’s blog but I have had many exchanges with you and know you to be a narrow minded type who resorts to red-herring arguments when cornered.
I just explained to you that a phobia is an irrational fear and I have asked what is irrational about questioning homosexuality. Only a blatant politically-correct twit would reply claiming I am homophobic. What is the relationship between questioning the roots of homosexuality and an irrational fear?
Heterosexuals, like me, have perversions and when the issue is raised, most people simply raise their eyebrows because they know perversion is an oddity of the human mind. When someone points out that homosexuality is yet another perversion, the observer is regarded as having an irrational fear of homosexuals.
The function of sexual attraction is the reproduction of the human race. Recreational sex is a perversion. I have said nothing about it being good or bad, I simply don’t care what people do in private. I have done it myself but I don’t hold up recreational sex as something sacred, it’s a perversion of the basic function of reproduction even though we modernists have prettied it up and had the nerve to call it love.
Along come male homosexuals with no ability to reproduce so they become inventive by using orifices for which that function was not intended. Not only that, the orifices contain material that can make people sick unless great care is taken. Again, I don’t care what people do in private, it’s their business. Just don’t try to con the rest of us into thinking it is sacred and about love. It’s a perversion like the recreational sex of humans.
So, call the messenger a homophobe. Only a person lacking awarenesss and intelligence would pay any heed to such a politically-correct accusation. Since you accept it as a norm then it labels you as lacking the awareness and intelligence to understand. Then again, you demonstrate the same lack of intelligence and awareness with your alarm about global warming/climate change.
I might add that love has nothing to do with sex. Love is sacred and a very natural function of the human, as is compassion. Recreational sex is not, and no expression related to sex is about love. Sex is about lust and lust cannot exist with love in the same space. You can kid yourself into thinking both can exist simultaneously but that is an illusion related to the immature and inexperienced mind.
There is a perfectly good explanation for this. Love is about the other person. When you love someone, you are focused on the other person with no awareness of your ‘self’. Sex is exactly the opposite, the focus is on you, and your desires/physical needs.
On numerous occasions as a young man I mad that mistake, of feeling aroused sexually and telling a woman I loved her. I cringe at the thought of such a blatant lie, unintentional or otherwise.
Women ultimately pay the price, they get pregnant and some schmuck realizes his expression of love was sexually induced and bails on her. There is nothing equivalent to that in a homosexual relationship and that’s why I think homosexual marriages are bs.
I can understand men feeling love for each other but once you move into the arena of sexual feeling, you cannot have love. You can move back into the space of love when sexual feeling is absent but…puleeeeze…don’t call the practice of anal sex love, any more than heterosexual sex is love. And when certain men engage in anal sex while stoned and end up with AIDS, don’t blame it on a virus.
If you regard anything I have said as homophobia then you are a brain-dead, politically-correct idiot.
Sure Gordon, you think you are the ‘least homophobic person in this forum’.
Sounds familiar.
And your psycho-sexual-babble defenses are just plain weird.
Nate…”And your psycho-sexual-babble defenses are just plain weird”.
Nate…you are plain weird. You will never understand what I’m talking about till you lose the ego and admit you don’t KNOW anything. Then you might find the space for insight, and to allow intelligence to operate.
Like me, you might need to visit the school of hard knocks for a couple of decades to get the piss beat out of you so much so you are willing to start looking.
You call homosexuality a perversion.
You do this without a rational argument. You describe homosexual activities as unnatural. This isn’t argument, it’s just a declaration.
You have an irrational aversion to homosexuality.
That is what homophobia is.
I’ll provide you a dictionary definition.
-phobia (noun combining form)
Definition of -phobia (Entry 2 of 2)
1: exaggerated fear of
acrophobia
2: intolerance or aversion for
photophobia
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/phobia
And…
Definition of homophobia
: irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals
You want to see what a rational line of argument looks like? Here’s a classic syllogism.
—————————————————————-
Same-sex sexuality is a natural occurence in the animal kingdom
Humans are animals
Therefore same-sex sexuality among humans is a natural occurance
—————————————————————-
Homosexuality is natural, but it is also abnormal. People confuse the concept that natural means normal. It doesn’t.
Humans do have an aversion or uncomfortableness with abnormal things.
Yes, some do.
Thankfully in America, we have the freedom and liberty to not conform to what other people consider ‘normal’.
Normal or abnormal, isn’t an opinion. Only about 1-1.5% of the population are homosexuals, but homosexuality has been around since humans. Psychopaths are abnormal too. But, psychopathic behavior is natural.
I wouldn’t be too sure about those figures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_sexual_orientation
Let’s have a look at the word you are using:
abnormal (adj)
deviating from what is normal or usual, typically in a way that is undesirable or worrying
Being left handed is ‘abnormal.’ But it doesn’t get a value judgement in modern sociaties. It used to. People used to be phobic about it. It was equated with unnaturalness and even evil.
Do people have an aversion to my colour blindness? I don’t think people much care either way. In fact, quite a few are facinated by it. It’s certainy not the norm.
People are averse to phyical deformity. But these doesn’t usually come with a value judgement as being someohow intrinsically perverse – unless you’re a fucking philistine.
I guess non-white people in majority white societies are abnormal, are they? Are they averse to themselves, or is that a response that only the majority are able to experience?
Labeling homosexuality as ‘abnormal’ – per the dictionary definition above – is rationalising homophobia.
“Only about 1-1.5% of”
Apparently Stephen equates Uncommon with Abnormal.
Then it must be abnormal to:
Collect stamps.
Ride a 3 wheeled vehicle.
Be a grandmother with tatoos.
…
Not sure what his point is.
But it certainly does seem contradictory to the idea of America as ‘Land of the Free’
To expand on the conecpt of liberty and freedom in free societies: I think it applies to activities that others may find different or disagree with or even be averse to.
We can do them unless they harm others.
Being a psychopath that harms others, not ok.
Being gay and having gay sex in private? OK.
I don’t have any problem with gay people wanting to have sex in private. I personally don’t want to see it in public. But, as Americans, they have the right to do whatever they want as long as they aren’t breaking any laws or destroying others’ property. More power to them. But, it is an abnormal behavior. I disagreed that the Supreme Court should force gay marriage onto everyone. It should have been a tenth amendment issue.
Also, being a psychopath apparently is OK. Psychopaths aren’t selected against in the gene pool.
You might even argue that psychopathic behavior is more constructive than homosexual behavior. Psychopaths can be counted on to do society’s dirty deeds. What do homosexuals do that is constructive? They make good clothing fashion designers. They are artistic. But, what do they do to develop the human species biologically?
Barry, using Wikipedia as a source is like using mainstream media as a source.
The thing about using wikipedia is that it often has multiple sources, and in this case it lets you know that the statistics are quite different depending on which reports you read.
I don’t know what sources you use, but I’m pretty sure theyt are not reliable. If you reject all mainstream information services, then you are by definition relying on fringe sources.
Frankly, I think you get your news from facebook and youtube, and very likely twitter. But perhaps you could be a stright-shooter and tell me what information portals you think are reliable.
“I disagreed that the Supreme Court should force gay marriage onto everyone.”
Everyone????
You feel you are being forced to marry a man?
Forced to marry a woman?
“But, what do they do to develop the human species biologically?”
IDK.
What do senior citizens do?
What about people who choose not to have children?
They shouldnt get to marry, by Stephen’s rules!
“psychopathic behavior is more constructive than homosexual behavior”
Stephen, You’re attempts at logic to justify your hatred of certain groups are ludicrous.
Don’t even bother. There is no logic to it.
In the Georgia recount both Biden and Trump picked up more votes from missing ballots. The margin narrowed by 496 votes, from 12,780 to 12,284.
And that was about the best the administration could hope for, judging from past recounts.
When will they stop dicking the country around, let Biden get the security briefings, and conced so the country can get on with it.
The commander-in-chief is tweeting his heart out about the election while ignoring national security, COVID and the economy. A massive deriliction of duty. I believe he is slated to pardon some turkeys, though.
What an appalling disgrace he is.
Yeah Barry.
It is astonishing that people still think this demonstrably narcissistic, incompetent asshole, who shows so little concern for Democracy, or other people’s misery, is somehow FOR THEM.
Incompetent? Compared to who? He was substantially better than Obama in every category. From unemployment rates, regulations, foreign policy, sovereignty, Bill of Rights, etc. I understand those are things you leftists abhor. You guys keep labeling him a narcissist, but Obama fits those characteristics much better than Trump ever has. Talk about a serious lack of empathy; that’s Obama.
“Talk about a serious lack of empathy; that’s Obama.”
Stephen, IDK where you get your ‘news’, Q?
But its just back-asswards!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/as-covid-outbreak-continues-trump-returns-to-perennial-obsession-tv-ratings/ar-BB18uYF0
“Hundreds of American are dying of coronavirus everyday, but the only numbers that President Trump talked about on Saturday morning were TV ratings.”
Yes, a narcissist, and Yes, Incompetent.
It’s been a 4 year train-wreck, and the carriages are now crashing into the earth.
The out and out lies Giuliana and his cohort of crazies are telling are phenomenal. Hugo Chavez, dead for 7 years, has been named by Trump’s crack team as responsible for the Dominion voting system, which is not a Venezualan product, and is a competitor to the comapny (Smartmatic) Trtump’s finest lawyers have claimed owns the software.
https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9740535009
I’m curious to see how many conservatives pull away from this abject fiasco, and how long it takes them.
I’ve never seen a modern political party that wasn’t a fringe outfit shift so far to la-la land. What a wild alternative reality! It’s wonderful entertainment. But good God, I don’t know how I would take it if I was American.
I hope they go further. I hope they keep drifting deeper into the extraordinary delusion – so far that eventually even the staunchest fangirls realize that these people are plain nuts.
Yikes!
barry…”Trumps crack team as responsible for the Dominion voting system, which is not a Venezualan product, and is a competitor to the comapny (Smartmatic) ”
I have endured your bs on NOAA and GISS and your propaganda related to both. Now you are defending a company, Smartmatic which was developed in Venzuela by Venezuelans whose software has been used to rig elections.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartmatic
“In 1997,[4] three engineers, Antonio Mugica, Alfredo Jos Anzola and Roger Piate, began collaborating in a group while working at Panagroup Corp. in Caracas, Venezuela”.
Guess where Chavez rigged his elections?
“Following the 2004 Venezuelan recall election, Smartmatic acquired Sequoia Voting Systems, one of the leading US companies in automated voting products…”
“The request was made after a March 2006 following issues in Chicago and Cook County, where a percentage of the machines involved were manufactured by Sequoia, and Sequoia provided technical assistance, some by a number of Venezuelan nationals flown in for the event.[102] According to Sequoia, the tabulation problems were due to human error, as a post-election check identified only three mechanical problems in 1,000 machines checked[102] while election officials blamed poor training.[103] Other issues were suspected to be related to software errors linked to the voting system’s central computer”.
I’d say there is sufficient evidence and/or doubt about this company to require a judicial investigation. I say that because this company has been involved in shady election results throughout the world. Where there is doubt, with an election as close as the 2020 election, an extensive investigation is required. Either that or scrap the mail-in votes.
barry…”I hope they go further. I hope they keep drifting deeper into the extraordinary delusion ”
Once again, you have not the slightest idea of what you are talking about. You have completely ignored the past 4 years in which the Democrat Party has been involved in one sleazy scheme after another to get rid of an elected President. It began with a total fabrication, funded by the Clinton Foundation desperately trying to link Trump and Russia in a collusion to interfere with the 2016 vote.
This party is so desperate to get rid of Trump they will stoop to anything, including working with corrupt companies who specialize in rigging elections. The 50% of voters who backed Trump deserve to be represented no matter what you sickos think.
Thank you for the wiki page on Smartmatic, which corroborates exactly what I said:
“2020 elections
Smartmatic was the subject of a hoax in the aftermath of the 2020 United States presidential election, notably promoted by the personal attorney to President Donald Trump, Rudy Giuliani, who falsely asserted the company was founded by the former socialist Venezuelan leader Hugo Chvez and that it owned and provided software to a company that is actually a competitor, Dominion Voting Systems. Giuliani baselessly asserted Dominion is a “radical-left” company with connections to antifa that sent American voting data to foreign Smartmatic locations.[124] Others falsely asserted that Smartmatic was owned by George Soros[125] and that the company owned Dominion, another company that was the subject of misinformation during the election period.[126] Smartmatic voting machines were not used in any of the battleground states that determined Joe Biden’s election victory.”
Now, I know you, Gordon, if it doesn’t fit with your delusion, you will sully your own source, so here’s another.
https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9740535009
“Both Dominion and Smartmatic have released statements saying no ownership relationship exists between the two competing firms.”
Giuliani is delusional. Dominion software is not created by Smartmatic.
“Dominion was founded in 2002 in Toronto, Ontario, Canada, by John Poulos and James Hoover.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_Voting_Systems
barry…”Smartmatic was the subject of a hoax in the aftermath of the 2020 United States presidential election, notably promoted by the personal attorney to President Donald Trump, Rudy Giuliani…”
I did not see them provide any proof of a hoax. There is proof that Smartmatic machines failed badly.
barry…”Smartmatic voting machines were not used in any of the battleground states that determined Joe Bidens election victory”.
The article was obviously submitted by someone sympathetic to Smartmatic. That is a blatant lie. the Dominion company was involved in those states and they use Smartmatic machines.
You have no evidence for what you’re saying, Gordon. Whereas I’ve provided substantiation.
Quoting Trump’s lawyers isn’t the evidence you need to show, because they got it wrong, as multiple sources have pointed out.
They’ve just had their case thrown out for lack of evidence. It’s been dismissed with prejudice in court.
So you need to do better than they did. Please provide substantioation for what you’re claiming.
You’re claiming that Dominion owns Smartmatic machines. Prove that.
You’re claiming Smartmatic machines were used in battleground states. Prove it.
Here you go, Gordon. From the horses mouth.
“In the aftermath of the 2020 general election, there has been a great deal of misinformation being circulated about Smartmatic and other companies that provide election technology to voting jurisdictions in the US. We would like to dispel these incorrect statements with facts.
Smartmatic has never owned any shares or had any financial stake in Dominion Voting Systems. Smartmatic has never provided Dominion Voting Systems with any software, hardware or other technology. The two companies are competitors in the marketplace.”
https://www.smartmatic.com/media/article/smartmatic-s-response-to-misinformation/
“DOMINION IS NOT, AND HAS NEVER BEEN, OWNED BY SMARTMATIC.
Dominion is an entirely separate company and a fierce competitor to Smartmatic.
Dominion and Smartmatic do not collaborate in any way and have no affiliate relationships or financial ties.
Dominion does not use Smartmatic software.”
https://www.dominionvoting.com/
Now just so we have it straight, Smartmatic machines were not used in battleground states.
Dominion machines were used in some battleground states,
The 2 companies are not affiliated.
Dominion was not established in Venezuala, nor did Hugo Chavez instigate it.
Now let’s see what hard evidence you have to the contrary. Claiming that everyone in the world is in on some conspiracy against Giuliani’s wild claims is not HARD EVIDENCE.
So let’s see it.
I don’t know what cesspit you get your information from, but you are the one dumping BS on these boards, Gordon.
Come on, you get your newss from facebook, don’t you?
barry, I’m glad to see you’re so involved in politics.
Maybe it will keep you from perverting science.
(Although, we did enjoy seeing you fall flat on your face, numerous times.)
I see two possibilities. Either Rudy will come up with actual evidence for his amazing allegations, or Trump is paying a lot of money for lawyers to disrupt the transition. I think it is the latter. I see this as payback for what Obama did to him with Crossfire Hurricane which led to the very discredited witch hunt that was the Mueller investigation. The icing on the cake is the fact that the phones of the Mueller team were subpoenaed and every single one of them suffered the same accidental loss of data! No more proof of their evil intent is needed.
The big difference here is that what Trump is doing is legal so far, and in the open. What the Comey FBI did under Obama’s instructions (use “the right people”), and Andrew McCabe’s very corrupt leadership, was done in secret, and most likely not legal. The IG Horowitz report is damning, and the Durham investigation with likely criminal indictments is continuing.
I wonder how much you actually know about Hurricane Crossfire.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossfire_Hurricane_(FBI_investigation)
“Trump was not personally under investigation until May 2017, when his firing of FBI director James Comey raised suspicions of obstruction of justice.”
The discredited “withchunt” found that there was indeed widesweeping Russian interference in the election, and indicted aides to the Trump administration, who pled guilty.
“Witchhunt”
That is what president Trump called it. He wasn’t exonerated from obstruction of justice, nor convicted of it, because the presidency rendered him immune, according to Mueller, which prevented making a finding.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mueller_report
Giuliani and the “elite” team of lawyers are running a sideshow. The claims are wild, factually incorrect and baseless. Giuliani is having trouble remembering legal terms and the name of the judge he is addressing.
These lawsuits are theatre. It’s why the vast majority have been thrown out.
barry…”The discredited withchunt found that there was indeed widesweeping Russian interference in the election, and indicted aides to the Trump administration, who pled guilty”.
If you really want to know about Crossfire Hurricane read Andrew McCarthy’s book Ball of Collusion: The Plot To Rig an Election. I got it at my local library. McCarthy is a former federal prosecutor and he is well versed in the ins and outs of the pertinent laws.
McCarthy is supportive of the FBI and CIA but he did not hesitate to demonstrate how they became involved with the Democrats in an inappropriate manner.
Unlike what you claim, there was no evidence to support Russian interference. The US people who went to jail were not involved in collusion with the Russians they got nailed for financial messing around. I thought Mueller far exceeded his mandate in going that far.
McCarthy thought the Russians were involved but he did not elaborate or provide proof. Neither did the FBI or CIA. What struck me was the way major players in the FBI and CIA, like Strok, had a hatred of Trump.
“During the presidency of Barack Obama, McCarthy characterized Obama as a radical and a socialist, and authored a book alleging that Obama was advancing a “Sharia Agenda”. He authored another book calling for Obama’s impeachment. He defended false claims that the Affordable Care Act would lead to “death panels”, and promoted the conspiracy theory that Bill Ayers, co-founder of the militant radical left-wing organization Weather Underground, had authored Obama’s autobiography Dreams from My Father….
McCarthy defended Trump amid calls for his impeachment over the Trump-Ukraine scandal where Trump sought to get the Ukrainian president to start an investigation into his political rival Joe Biden. McCarthy wrote that Trump’s behavior did not reach the level of impeachable conduct.”
You’ve found an author that hates Democrats and who peddles falsehoods. Sounds familiar.
No amount of Wikipedia spin or straw-man distraction can change the fact that Susan Rice is a liar and wrong again. They did not “go by the book”. The FBI teams that were hand picked by Andrew McCabe did not make 17 different accidental mistakes in the most important and highly consequential investigation of their or anyone’s career in the FBI. They knew exactly what they were doing because it was exactly what they were asked to do. An FBI lawyer, who is now a convicted felon, does not accidentally change the meaning of an email from the CIA. Carter Page was working for the CIA, and the dossier was a completely made up lie. Everyone from Obama on down the line knew this as an absolute fact, but they lied to the FISA court anyway. Those of you who think this is funny should do some research and find out what the court has to say in published comments about all of these events. There indeed was Russian collusion, and it was between the FBI, the Clinton Campaign, and Russian intelligence.
Of course there was Russian interference in the 2016 election. How do you not know this?
https://tinyurl.com/gtmtr5n
Many people in the Trump campaign who were indicted were charged with lying to the FBI and other investigations about Russian interference.
“Investigators ultimately had an incomplete picture of what happened due to communications that were encrypted, deleted, or not saved and due to testimony that was false, incomplete, or declined.”
Nevertheless,
Michael Flynn:
“acknowledged that his false statements and omissions in FBI interviews a few days after Trump was sworn in “impeded and otherwise had a material impact on the FBI’s ongoing investigation into the existence of any links or coordination between individuals associated with the campaign and Russian efforts to interfere with the 2016 presidential election,” which the statement of offense he agreed to said.
He specifically admitted to lying about asking the Russian ambassador to refrain from responding to Obama administration sanctions against Russia for its election interference and further requested Russia help block a United Nations vote on Israeli settlements which the incoming administration didn’t agree with.”
It wasn’t just dirty finances.
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/breakdown-indictments-cases-muellers-probe/story?id=61219489
People making snide insults should do better research:
https://www.cnn.com/2019/12/17/politics/fisa-court-slams-fbi-conduct/index.html
“The FBI’s handling of the Carter Page applications, as portrayed in the [Office of the inspector general] report, was antithetical to the heightened duty of candor described above. The frequency with which representations made by FBI personnel turned out to be unsupported or contradicted by information in their possession, and with which they withheld information detrimental to their case, calls into question whether information contained in other FBI applications is reliable,” federal Judge Rosemary Collyer wrote in an order from the court published Tuesday.”
Your repeated implication is that the investigation was ordered or directed for political reasons, and by Obama.
The available facts from the actual IG report say otherwise.
“Trump and his allies repeatedly promoted conspiracy theories asserting that the Crossfire Hurricane investigation was opened on false pretenses for political purposes.[3] A subsequent review done by Justice Department Inspector General Michael E. Horowitz, released in redacted form in December 2019, did not find political bias in the initiation of the FBI investigation.[4]”
Nate, who are you trying to fool? That is obviously a BS opinion quote, and not directly from the report. The IG was very clear that the only evidence against political influence was lack of evidence. He could not prove it, so he did not make that claim. He was also very explicit that none of the agents interviewed could offer ANY explanation for how ANY of the errors occurred. They just played dumb.
The Durham investigation is ongoing and his report will be issued with a high likelihood of indictments.
Ok lets see the quotes you are referring to.
“The Durham investigation is ongoing and his report will be issued with a high likelihood of indictments.”
If it is ongoing, how do you know whats in it?
Since it didnt come out before the election, it is highly likely that it will be another nothingburger.
I don’t think this revisionism is going to change the fact that Trump is behaving like a petulant child.
Does your patriotism extend far enough to care that Biden has not yet been allowed the usual security briefings that George W Bush got while waiting on the Florida results in 2000?
What could possibly justify this dereliction?
Tim has referenced the Horowitz inquiry as evidence the FBI werre acting with poilitical bias in surveilling Carter Page.
“December 9, 2019, US Inspector General Michael Horowitz testified to Congress that the FBI showed no political bias at the initiation of the investigation into Trump and possible connections with Russia.[82][83][84] However, he also stated in a Senate hearing that he could not rule out political bias as a potential motivation.[85][86][87][88] Horowitz said he had no evidence the warrant problems were caused by intentional malfeasance or political bias rather than “gross incompetence and negligence”,[89] adding his report was not an exoneration: “It doesn’t vindicate anybody at the F.B.I. who touched this, including the leadership.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Page#Horowitz_Report_findings
You can find the sources for all that on the page linked.
Furthermore:
“The Republican-controlled Committee released its final report on 2016 Russian election interference in August 2020, finding that despite problems with the FISA warrant requests used to surveil him, the FBI was justified in its counterintelligence concerns about Page.[98]”
tim s…”I see two possibilities. Either Rudy will come up with actual evidence for his amazing allegations, or Trump is paying a lot of money for lawyers to disrupt the transition”.
If the election results were not so close I might agree. I have the feeling he thinks he won and got jobbed. I tend to agree with him.
They may also be counting on getting this before the Supreme Court. With several more Republican judges on the bench they may be inclined to cut him some slack and make a decision that could send this to the House of Representatives. I don’t think they are going to so much trouble out of spite.
I recall the decision between Bush and Gore related to the chads. At the time I was mistakenly supporting Gore and I thought the decision by Scalia regarding the chads was political. Don’t see why that can’t happen again.
The Supreme Court has the power to rule the election null and void. I think, based on the peculiar introduction of so many mail-in ballots due to covid, the court may take that into account. This is not like like a normal election where one side is whining over a loss, there were significant irregularities.
One major irregularity was the stopping of the vote counting by several of the last states which could sway the vote either way. It would be hard to prove this in a limited time period and that’s why I think the Supreme Court should make a ruling to give the necessary time to investigate.
“The Supreme Court has the power to rule the election null and void. I think, based on the peculiar introduction of so many mail-in ballots due to covid, the court may take that into account. ”
That’s the point. What a demonstrably ignorant Canadian troll thinks the SCOTUS has the power and willingness to do is absolutely worthless.
Gordon Robertson
“One major irregularity was the stopping of the vote counting by several of the last states…”
May be they listened to Trump’s capital letter message: “STOP THE COUNT”
https://twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1324353932022480896
Yes, its ‘Whataboutism’ taken to its ultimate limits.
It seems to be fine for Trump to do actual harm to democracy and the country by an unprecedented refusal to transition, in service of enacting revenge for a litany of perceived injustices that were mostly brought about by his own actions.
Well, at least you are correct about one thing. As the most hated politician in recent history (yes, probably worse than Nixon), Trump made a big mistake winning an election against Hillary Clinton. The criminal element in the FBI had no choice but to take action, and Obama is quoted directly in FBI hand written notes taken in the oval office telling Comey to use “the right people” for the Crossfire Hurricane investigation. It was definitely Trump’s own fault that he ran for President and won.
“Obama is quoted directly in FBI hand written notes taken in the oval office telling Comey to use the right people”
Nope, you never showed a legitimate news source for these quotes. Fake news from Q.
” It was definitely Trumps own fault ” that he tried his best to obstruct justice in the investigation of Russian interference.
It is definitely Trumps fault
that he fired the FBI director who had the gall to investigate wrongdoing by members of his campaign.
It is not the DEMs fault that his own Deputy Attorney General appointed a special prosecutor to investigate this apperent obstruction of justice
It is definitely Trumps own fault that he chose to try to blackmail another country into opening an investigation into his political opponent.
Here you go. They have a picture of the raw notes and this translation:
https://thefederalist.com/2020/06/24/explosive-new-fbi-notes-confirm-obama-directed-anti-flynn-operation/
NSA-D-DAG = [Flynn cuts?]. Other countries
D-DAG: lean forward on [unclass?]
VP: “Logan Act”
P: These are unusual times
VP: I’ve been on the intel cmte for ten years and I never
P: Make sure you look at things + have the right people on it
P: Is there anything I shouldn’t be telling transition team?
D: Flynn –> Kislyak calls but appear legit
[illegible] Happy New Year. Yeah right
If these notes are accurate, it means Obama and Biden were made aware of Mike Flynns contact with the Russian ambassador, in January, 2017.
This makes perfect sense since it had foreign policy implications while Obama was still President.
And, ‘use the right people’ means what to you???
“Obama did to him with Crossfire Hurricane which led to the very discredited witch hunt that was the Mueller investigation.”
That is hardly smoking gun evidence that Obama was directing Crossfire Hurricane, which was going on well before in 2016.
“Trump made a big mistake winning an election against Hillary Clinton. The criminal element in the FBI had no choice but to take action”
And this is completely illogical, since they took action to investigate well BEFEORE he won the election.
Your whole premise seems to be that the FBI should not have ever investigated this possibly illegal foreign election interference activity? That such an action is only what a ‘criminal element’ would do?
Sorry but IMO, thats exactly what the Federal Bureau of Investigation should do, investigate.
Don’t get too dizzy with all of that spin. You do a good job of playing dumb, just like the FBI agents who made all of those “unexplained” errors in an official court filing. The correct action is a defensive briefing. Tell Trump to fire the people they suspect of being foreign agents. That is the correct and legal thing to do. Instead, they launched a secret investigation of an opposition candidate with fake evidence — evidence they knew full well was fake.
“The correct action is a defensive briefing. Tell Trump to fire the people they suspect of being foreign agents.”
In your ‘expert’ opinion.
The FBI was conducting a counterintelligence investigation. Do you even know what that means?
Here some help
https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/counterintelligence
Making the targets of the investigation and their potential foreign contacts aware of the investigation sounds pretty dumb.
Republican Federal Judge dismissing Trump Pa case:
“One might expect that when seeking such a startling outcome, a plaintiff would come formidably armed with compelling legal arguments and factual proof of rampant corruption, such that this Court would have no option but to regrettably grant the proposed injunctive relief despite the impact it would have on such a large group of citizens. That has not happened,” Brann added. “Instead, this Court has been presented with strained legal arguments without merit and speculative accusations, unpled in the operative complaint and unsupported by evidence.”
nate…the Trump team don’t care about low-level state judges, they are going through the required motions to get to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has already noted irregularities in the Pennsylvania vote processing and deemed it unconstitutional.
Let’s face it, this election was rigged by the mail-in votes and the Supreme Court knows that. Don’t whine too much if Trump is successful at that level and the decision goes to Congress, where he will win easily.
No one really wants to see Biden run the country, he’s a long time loser.
“..this election was rigged by the mail-in votes and the Supreme Court knows that”.
But Giuliani does not know? What an incompetent lawyer!
“The Supreme Court has already noted irregularities in the Pennsylvania vote processing and deemed it unconstitutional.”
Nope, the conservatives on the Supreme Court said that there was a ‘strong likelihood’ it was federally unconstitutional that the PA Supreme Court extended the deadline for receiving mail in ballots. This has not yet been adjudged by the federal SC.
If this suit succeeds in the federal SC, it will throw out just under 10,000 votes (the ballots received after the original deadline have been kept aside).
As Biden is currently ahead by 80,000 + votes, this would have zero impact on Biden’s win in PA.
The decision is not going to congress. Trump needs to throw out another 70,000 votes in PA.
‘Let’s face it, this election was rigged by the mail-in votes and the Supreme Court knows that.”
Gordon, it is interesting that you need no evidence to come to your conclusion. Luckily courts, even the SCOTUS do.
“Don’t whine too much if Trump is successful at that level and the decision goes to Congress, where he will win easily.”
Not sweating it, Gordon. You continue to have an incredible level of ignorance of how the US justice system actually works.
“No one really wants to see Biden run the country, he’s a long time loser.”
No one other than 51 % of the voters.
You so effortlessly slide into reality denial.
You don’t seem to require evidence to believe in conspiracies.
You seem be hopeful that the US is already a banana republic, where if the president appoints judges to the court, then they must show loyalty to him, rather than the law and the Constitution.
This election discussion is quite revealing about your anomalous thought process.
The judge was appropriately scathing.
This claim, like Frankensteins Monster, has been haphazardly stitched together.
I’ve been going through the case, as well as others. They are some entertainment for their witlessness.
The Arizona case presenting hundreds of affadavits best typifies what the entire legal effort to flip the election is all about.
The plaintiffs had set up an online form for anyone to fill out.
The plaintiffs admitted in court that they had tossed a bunch of affadavits that they knew were false, and submitted the rest on the basis that… they could not prove they were false.
Naturally, the judge dismissed this evidence saying that the process by which they gathered it was, by their own admission, unreliable, because it had produced a lot of lies and “spam.”
Plaintiffs tried to argue that CAPCHA had weeded out bots, and thus made the tranche more reliable.
You can’t write this stuff. But you can write about it. This is worth a read: we get some insight to the people who filed the affadavits as they respond to the court.
https://tinyurl.com/y256j7nq
I say again, this scattershot litigation is a circus. Evidence is baseless. It’s a fishing expedition at best, and it is utterly corrosive to the democratic process and to civil discourse in the US. Trump is divisive and destructive.
And he still hasn’t allowed Biden to get the usual security breifings. He has no regard for America, only for himself.
I do not understand how this is not crystal clear to conservatives.
Quotes missing – this was the judges actual words:
“This claim, like Frankensteins Monster, has been haphazardly stitched together.”
And my post was in reply to Nate’s above, but having to re-post twice because of this site’s curliques sent it down the bottom.
[Sidebar – I have fewer problems posting from my Macbook than my regular desktop PC. Both are new. No idea why]
Senior Republicans are finally coming out to call the legal shennanigans for what they are.
John Bolton – “Right now Trump is throwing rocks through windows, he is the political equivalent of a street rioter.”
…Chris Christie agreed that it was time for the president to concede and said the legal team fighting to overturn the election was “a national embarrassment”.
The Maryland governor, Larry Hogan, another Republican, said “I’m embarrassed” at the lack of party leadership speaking out to recognize the election result.
Hogan added that he thought Trump’s pressuring last week of state legislators “to somehow try to change the outcome” was “completely outrageous.”
The US used to supervise elections around the world but was now “beginning to look like we’re in a banana republic,” Hogan told CNN’s State of the Union politics show.”
https://tinyurl.com/y4m2hbze
We’ll see if more of the Republican leadership grows a spine now that it’s clear Trump can’t litigate himself a win.
barry, you and Nate (the Hate machine) make great vultures.
Make sure the victim is dead before you start feasting.
Your cult always brings out the best in your type.
barry…”Senior Republicans are finally coming out to call the legal shennanigans for what they are”.
John Bolton??? Come on, Barry, this guy is a serious idiot. Why not Mitt Romney, another idiot. Poor old John McCain is no longer with us and he was a prominent Republican Trump hater. But Bolton???
I think I am being trolled at times trying to make rational and factual comments, but I will play on this one. The best legal analysis I have seen is that Trump’s team of exceptional lawyers is playing games. They make entirely different arguments in front of the cameras than they make in court, and they are consistently losing in court with increasingly harsh criticism from various federal judges. The game is over. The only question is how the game ends. The SCOTUS is not going to go near this thing. Biden will be elected president on December 14. I think Trump needs to make the case that his actions are justified because of the Crossfire Hurricane investigation and Mueller investigation that severely hindered his presidency, or he needs to give up and play nice. I still think the Durham report is extremely important to shed light on all of the behind the scenes action that resulted in the most shameful abuse in FBI history.
Tim,
I don’t think Sidney Powell is that kind of attorney. She would not be making claims if she did not have some evidence to back them up. She is too credible.
Also, Linn Wood is an outstanding attorney. Both he and Powell have great reputations and are formidable in court. They don’t make wild claims. But, you’re right, and part of the problem is access, and forensic analysis of the data cannot be done quickly. They need a major smoking gun.
“She would not be making claims if she did not have some evidence to back them up. She is too credible.”
How do you judge that?
She hasnt shown any evidence. Long dead Venezuelan President involved?
C’mon.
State Republican lawmakers, governors and secretaries of state across the US are all saying that the elections were not fraudulent.
I guess they’re all idiots and Trump is a man of integrity.
In the fact-free world of Trump supporters.
What do Trump supporters here think of the fact that Biden is still not getting intelligence briefings? How is that justifiable in any way?
” The game is over. The only question is how the game ends. The SCOTUS is not going to go near this thing.”
Yes, Thanks for facing reality Tim, which some of the posters here are simply unable to do.
“I think Trump needs to make the case that his actions are justified because of the Crossfire Hurricane investigation and Mueller investigation that severely hindered his presidency”
I don’t see how either of these justifies for anyone, his unprecedented personal revenge scenario, that does harm to both democracy and the country.
Most other Presidents had to endure Investigations. Clinton Whitewater and Monica. Obama and Hillary: Benghazi, seven times! Hillary emails.
“I still think the Durham report is extremely important to shed light on all of the behind the scenes action that resulted in the most shameful abuse in FBI history.”
Hyperbole.
You need perspective. I think if you look at the J Edgar Hoover era you will see much much worse. Hoover had a file on all major political figures.
“ELECTIONS INFRASTRUCTURE GOVERNMENT COORDINATING COUNCIL”
Well that settles it then. They are for sure the one group that would come out and say that there was fraud, so if they are saying coordinated correctly, there was none. Them stopping counting when Biden was behind and then him ahead when I woke up – and in the only four places where Biden outperformed Hilary – was a total coincidence.
Do you get your news from youtube? Because what you typed about the counts stopping is pure, unadulterated BS. That’s why you will be unable to supply a credible source for it.
Barry, have you read the Pennsylvania election law? Read article 13D about absentee ballots. There are a lot more than 10,000 mail-in ballots in question. Almost all of the mail-in ballots violated Pennsylvania election law. Not only the courts but the Pennsylvania executive branch violated the law by mailing out all those ballots. This occurred in other states too, where ballots were mass-mailed.
Stephen, have you read what JM wrote here?
It’s BS. Are you changing the subject to deflect attention away from what he said, or do you agree it’s BS?
I don’t know JM or much about his argument. I know Trump has a strong legal point regarding the Constitution.
Can you establish
1) That there was a mass mailout of unrequested ballots
2) That this is against Pennsylvania law
I was unable to determine either
“violated the law by mailing out all those ballots.”
Nope. In Pa you had to request a ballot to get one mailed to you.
https://www.votespa.com/Voting-in-PA/Pages/Mail-and-Absentee-Ballot.aspx
If you read the law, it states you have to apply in person or on an official form mailed-in with your signature. It doesn’t state anything about applying on-line. Also, the Pennsylvania poll workers in Philadelphia did not allow observation of any of these ballots’ opening to see if they were valid ballots. They prevented transparency.
Also, Article I describes absentee electors. Can you show me where Pennsylvania’s recent changes with mail-in ballots met these provisions of Article I? It describes the different electors who can request absentee ballots. Nowhere does it state you can request a ballot because you are afraid to go to the poll.
“Also, the Pennsylvania poll workers in Philadelphia did not allow observation of any of these ballots opening to see if they were valid ballots. They prevented transparency.”
where from?
As far as all else in Pa, our opinions don’t matter since nothing of consequence the Trump team has brought up has made it thru the courts, except bringing observers closer.
All just grasping at straws…
Your guy lost. Oh well. Happens to all of us.
You’re right. I believe Biden will ultimately be elected. They say lawyers make the best criminals. Leftist lawyers make even better criminals. The Democrats knew if they cheated, they could not be caught in time to turn the election. By any means necessary is an apt motto. It will be a short-lived victory for the leftists and Biden. By the time Biden finishes, he will go down as the worst President in our history, even worse than Obama and Carter.
Also, Nate, Obama appointed judges are that. Obama appointed judges.
“The Democrats knew if they cheated, they could not be caught in time to turn the election. By any means necessary is an apt motto.”
Sure if that narrative makes you feel better about the loss..
Some of us prefer to live in evidence-based reality.
“They prevented transparency.”
No, they didn’t.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/nov/12/donald-trump/trumps-wrong-claim-election-observers-were-barred-/
Not only have the suits alleging this failed, the plaintiffs have admitted that Repiblican observers were present.
This is one in a host of false claims.
Barry,
Politifact is wrong. It was reported for a couple of days that Trump observers were kept away from the ballot counters. They had to stand far enough away so they could not physically see the ballots. I saw the reports.
Please don’t quote leftists propagandists organizations like Politifact or Wikipedia. How do you explain the night of the election the sudden stoppage of votes, Republican observers were kicked out, and then suddenly, there was an abrupt jump in Biden’s count? This is seen when you look at the hour by hour vote counts in several battleground states. Do you understand Occam’s Razor about the simplest explanation?
Stephen, it seems you are simply parroting the claims made by the Trump campaing lawyers as if they are fact.
I think your ‘reports’ come from facebook or youtube. Perhaps you can show us that you yourself are using credible sources.
You have asserted there was a sudden stoppage of vote counting on election night for no good reason.
Prove it.
You have implied that no Republican observers were present during a ballot count.
Prove it.
You have implied that Republicans were illegally kept further away from counting tables than they were allowed.
Prove it.
And while you are at it, show that Democrats were allowed closer. You are implying that Republicans were being treated less fairly than Democrats.
You have asserted that unrequested mass mail-out of ballots occurred in Pennsylvania.
Prove it.
One does not go to court to seek discovery of evidence of allegations. One comes with credible evidence. Hearsay is not admissible in court.
When will you show credible evidence instead of just parroting headlines?
barry…”You have asserted there was a sudden stoppage of vote counting on election night for no good reason”.
Barry…you’re being obtuse. Anyone watching the coverage over here in NA saw that the count was stopped for the night with no reason given. One counting place in Georgia had a flood, which is understandable. But did someone hold a lighter under a fire sprinkler when it became obvious Trump was winning?
It was reported on the news that Republican observers had not only been blocked from viewing the counting, some were not even allowed into the building. When a court order was obtained they were then blocked from getting close enough to see.
Why won’t somebody show us these credible news reports?
Some Republican observers were ejected for not following the rules. Plenty other conservative poll watchers remained inside, as the lawyers admitted in court. Trump and some of his legal team claimed outside of court that Republican observers had been “barred,” implying all of them. That is a lie. That is why the Trump campaign lawyers quickly dropped that line when they fronted the judge.
Republicans and Democrats wer required to stay a certain distance away from counters equally. Republicans were not singled out. That is another lie.
The Trump campaign has now had 2 partial successes out of 3 dozen lawsuits. 30 have been dismissed.
One of those partial successes was to have the observers moved closer to the tables. But there is no requirement in Pennsylvania law that there has to be a certain distance. There is no law that requires observers can audit and challenge any of the mail ballots being counted, and there are rules about not speaking to counters, not standing too close, not taking photographs or video, and not intimidating counters, all of which some observers did and were ejected for not folllowing the rules. There were always plenty of conservative observers present.
The ruling to have the obserevers moved closer was later overturned in a PA Supreme Court ruling.
The count only stopped briefly in one county in Georgia, when a pipe burst in the facility. The rest of the state kept going, as did the other battleground states.
For Christ’s sake, put up some links to sources that aren’t dodgy.
Stop getting your ‘reports’ from facebook!
If the cheating favored the Democrats, it didn’t matter that Democrat poll watchers stayed away equally. It only mattered that Republican poll watchers had to stay away.
The rules applied equally, of course. This issue has been in court. Someone has to show that the rules didn’t apply equally, and clearly you’re not going to be able to, and yet you still believe they didn’t, even though there is no reliable evidence for it, and election overseers country-wide, Republican and Democrat alike, say there was no fraud.
The only people saying otherwise are Trump and his supporters – no one else. With no reliable evidence. Trump has been saying the same thing for 5 years. It’s a mantra. And his followers echo it like a mantra.
Please, for goodness sake, bring some reliable evidence of something, or start to think that what has actually happened is that Trump has yelled fraud, and people who want that to be true have tried to construct that as true rather than expose it.
It’s why affidavits were gathered via online forms inviting them (and subsequently dismissed by judges, obviously). It’s why conservatives are PAYING people to come forward with tales of election fraud.
It’s a fishing expidition, Stephen. That’s why you have not cited one little bit of credible evidence in the conversations you’ve been having here for a couple of weeks. Rudy’s video isn’t it. It’s just him talking.
Do you not see the vast gulf between what has been claimed, and the hard evidence to substantiate it? The other side of that chasm remains shrouded in mist.
This numerical tool cannot possibly account for fraud committed by a means that was designed to avoid statistical detection. The Dominion software allegedly used a ratio to pad the results so it just gave Trump fewer votes along the way right from the beginning. Then they panicked because the ratio they chose wasn’t enough to win the places they were counting on – THAT is when counting mysteriously stopped, “updates” were made and suddenly Biden was getting way more votes in the count in the wee hours of the morning.
The day Biden is inaugurated is the day the USA becomes a banana republic. Most of the 80M (?) people who voted for Trump are private sector producers – not employed or benefiting from government. We are all going to stop or seriously slow down production to teach these thieves where the money ACTUALLY comes from – us.
Nope.
https://thehill.com/policy/technology/527086-dominion-spokesman-it-is-not-physically-possible-for-our-machines-to-switch
MM,
Wasn’t it because of her support of the same conspiracy theory that Trump just told his lawyer Sidney Powell: “YOU ARE FIRED”!
It was apparently too incredible, even for Trump (!).
A group of former Republican national security officials penned a letter Monday….:
“We believe that President Trump’s refusal to concede the election and allow for an orderly transition constitutes a serious threat to America’s democratic process and to our national security. We therefore call on Republican leaders — especially those in Congress — to publicly demand that President Trump cease his anti-democratic assault on the integrity of the presidential election,…”
Apparently it is possible to combine common sense with being a republican.
The judge in Pennsylvania who threw out Trump’s case declared that he was not going to disenfranchise several million [Democrat] votes based on Trump’s argument. How about the several million Republican votes? Some judges in lower courts are seriously biased and this one was obviously grandstanding.
A higher court has ordered a review. This will reach the Supreme Court eventually if the Supreme Court is at all just. The legal fight is being fought along partisan lines and no one is looking at the law. It comes down to whether it is expeditious to investigate or simply cover it up.
As it stands, Trump has every right to complain. This election is extremely close and it was done under extreme consitions due to covid. IMHO, there are good grounds for a Supreme Court decision on constitutional issues.
You are either going to have a Democracy or your not. The only just remedy here is a full investigation before handing over power to Biden. Done properly, it would only take a couple of months, and what’s that in the overall scheme of things?
“IMHO, there are good grounds for a Supreme Court decision on constitutional issues.”
And we have already established that your opinion on this is no better than my cat’s.
The Pennsylvania judge who dismissed the case is a Republican.
The ruling lays out the problem with the ‘tortured’ case, noting that two sets of lawyers withdrew from pleading it (after which Giuliani stepped in).
https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.pamd.127057/gov.uscourts.pamd.127057.202.0_1.pdf
Several million Republican votes were counted. They weren’t disenfranchised, they just lost the lection.
That’s how democracy works.
But the judge was appointed by Obama. That tells you everything about what kind of “Republican” he is. The Trump strategy will be to prevent Biden from getting 270 electoral votes. It is possible. I think Trump has a small chance. He has to win more than Pennsylvania.
No, Stephen, that does not “tell you everything” about what kind of Republican the judge is. His history and what other Republicans say about him does that. Obama, like many presidents before him, had to make compromises on who to appoint, as he did not have a majority senate to give him a free hand.
You remarks tell me a hell of a lot about how partisan you are on this.
Judge Brann is described as fair and impartial (by Republican senator Pat Toomey).
He has also held multiple leadership positions for the Republican party.
https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/MatthewBrann-PublicQuestionnaire.pdf
Your implication that he is a RINO is unfounded speculation convenient to your view, contradicted by facts.
“as he did not have a majority senate to give him a free hand.”
I must correct myself – Democrats were in the majority in the Senate when Brann was appointed.
Conservatives are gullible. Normal people are gullible. They do not understand or relate to psychopaths. They don’t understand or relate to the criminal mind. They don’t understand or relate to people with no integrity. The utopianists believe their goal is so moral, so just, that it is OK to use immoral means to achieve it. Look at the Marxists. Look at the Nazis. Look at the Nazi Party platform. Who wouldn’t want to live in that Shangrila? Have you ever watched some of Goebbel’s films? They are the elites, the masterminds. It has always been that way. Our founders tried to devise a system to prevent it. They couldn’t. Republics always fail. The masterminds devour them.
An insight into how Stephen arrives at his conspiracy laced conclusions.
Stephen,
“Do you understand Occams Razor about the simplest explanation?”
True.
Trump had a rough year with his Covid response, the economy, and protests.
In the election: which is simpler?
a. Trump got fewer (6 million) votes than Biden. He got fewer electoral votes than Biden.
or
b. There was a massive conspiracy by DEMS to steal the election, in multiple states, and somehow they did so without leaving evidence. Our election system failed in an unprecedented way.
Nate,
Democrats conspire all the time. They conspire much better than Republicans. The left is lock-step on the Supreme Court. They are lock-step in Congress. Their judges are lock-step with leftist ideology and thinking. To think that it is unreasonable to believe that Democrats in essentially five locations (Philadelphia, Detroit, Milwaukee, Las Vegas, and Fulton County GA) could conspire is, well, unreasonable.
Leftists on message boards worldwide use the same conspiracy theorist argument tactic, which is an example of conspiracy. Look at the mainstream media. From Rachel Maddow to Chris Cuomo to Thomas Kaplan, they are in lock-step. Republicans tend to be more individualistic. Leftists are a collective. Don’t historians believe that the Kennedy Nixon election was rigged? It wasn’t widespread but just enough to ensure Kennedy the win. Wasn’t that a conspiracy?
Nate,
Why don’t you describe for us how it would be impossible for the election to be fraudulent?
“Philadelphia, Detroit, Milwaukee, Las Vegas, and Fulton County GA) could conspire”
It is interesting that Trump highlights only counties with large black/brown counties as being ‘suspect’.
And his racist followers readily, without evidence, think that is reasonable.
They also think it reasonable to ask judges to simply throw out votes en masse from, these counties. And if they found a corruptable judge to go along with this, that would be bonafide election fraud!
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.jsonline.com/amp/6188097002
Milwakee turnout no better than 2016. The rest of Wisconsin much higher.
Same in Philly vs rest of Pa.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.inquirer.com/politics/election/philadelphia-2020-election-turnout-biden-trump-20201115.html%3foutputType=amp
Sorry doesnt fit your prefered fraudsters theory.
Same thing in Detroit vs rest of Michigan.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mlive.com/public-interest/2020/11/5-reasons-that-allegations-of-michigan-election-fraud-defy-common-sense.html%3foutputType=amp
Trump did a bit better in Detroit than 2016, when he won the state.
Your theory about those colored cities doesnt fit the data.
Where else you gonna look for fraud Stephen? The suburbs?
Heres some more info from the conspirators
“On average, Mr. Biden improved on Hillary Clintons performance in suburban counties around the country by about 5 percentage points (that average weights each county by population). In Georgia, the shift has been more than eight points. In Michigan and Wisconsin, it was about three points.”
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/06/upshot/suburbs-shifted-left-president.html
You’re right; the testifying data scientist was talking about precincts in the suburbs where the guy was going around with the USB sticks at 29 different voting machines. You’re going to have a difficult time convincing me that Biden legally got 78% of the mail-in votes. I keep saying you guys are clever criminals.
To perpetrate fraud, the best tactic would be to spread the fraud out over many precincts. Don’t you think?
The data scientist said there were 47 missing USB cards.
“legally got 78% of the mail-in votes. I keep saying you guys are clever criminals.”
Yes, Stephen, we are. We use arithmetic to fool you.
The numbers are actually coded messages.
All part of the conspiracy.
“Democrats conspire all the time. They conspire much better than Republicans.”
Uhhh…sure according to QANON.
Anyway if theyre so good, howd they bugger up the Senate and House?
Howd they do better than 2016 in so many suburbs in Michigan and Pa, but did worse in Detroit and Philly?
That the ‘fraud’ took places they did worse in kindof boggles the mind.
Again its the whole implausility of the many moving parts getting aligned, and the le lack of evidence thing.
That should put a damper on your theories….
There isn’t “no evidence.” That’s the talking point the left keeps repeating. Many people have come forward and signed affidavits of fraud. There is a lack of evidence. The way the courts work, the Trump team will have to present enough evidence to show the evidence changed the election. That would take a very long time. As I said, Democrats are outstanding criminals. Republicans are gullible to assume the Democrats would play fair.
Nate,
Please describe for us how it would be impossible for Democrats to conspire and commit election fraud? Not widespread fraud, but enough to win the election?
How’d they bugger-up the Senate and the House? Are you a Brit? Figures. Why are you even here? A Brit would only be (here) arguing US politics and supporting Democrats because he is a Marxist. They buggered it up because, as I said, it wasn’t widespread. They found the most corrupt areas and operated in those locations. The Democrats are good criminals.
Your theory is not falsifiable with ordinary facts and evidence.
“use the same conspiracy theorist argument tactic, which is an example of conspiracy”
This is similar to how Flat Earthers talk, Stephen.
“They found the most corrupt areas and operated in those locations. The Democrats are good criminals.”
The vote pattern fails to fit your theory in of fraud in those cities.
The failure in Senate/House makes them bad criminals.
But every contradictory fact somehow adds credence to the conspiracy.
Again a Flat Earther standard.
Not a Brit, but like Brit-coms, where things are often buggered up.
Again, your leftist talking points are unimaginative. Flat Earther, Conspiracy Theorist, these are common leftist talking points. Can’t you be a little more imaginative? If you’re so confident the election was not fraudulent, you should explain why it could not be fraudulent. Also, I think the left was caught off guard with the House and Senate. You know, they were all expecting a blue wave. I believe there were roughly 8 Democrat Senate seats but 25 Republican seats up for grabs. I know they assumed, and the media reported they’d pick up ten or twelve Senate seats, same with the House. I think that’s why they were caught off guard with the Presidential election too. It explains why they bungled and stopped the vote counting late at night (several states) and submitted many ballots with only the Biden Harris box checked.
When you have a theory (check), and it involves an improbable conspiracy (check), and it fits your prior beliefs about nefarious forces at work (check), and it needs no real evidence for you to be absolutely sure its true (check), and countradictory facts/logic are considered part of the conspiracy (check), then Yes, you are definitely a conspiracy theorist.
And yes, it is quite similar to Flat Earthers behaviors.
“If youre so confident the election was not fraudulent, you should explain why it could not be fraudulent.”
There can be election fraud, and there has been on small scales.
Elections involve thousands of volunteers in thousands of counties, and state gov officials overseeing it, and checks by party observers.
It is simply difficult and unlikely to organize many moving parts, many independent humans, to organize widespread fraud, while not being observed, and in this case several diverse states, some with Rep govts.
THE US has lots of experience running secure elections. It is not, on the whole, a corrupt country like some others,
And in this case, lacking evidence, there is no reason to believe it.
Sorry, Stephen I dont what math you did, but it works fine for me. Particularly when you account for rounding of in person votes to 2 out of 3 for Trump.
And it works also because these are the votes that were actually counted.
It is comical that you think anything about this basic math is suspicious.
“Democrats conspire all the time. They conspire much better than Republicans. The left is lock-step on the Supreme Court. They are lock-step in Congress. Their judges are lock-step with leftist ideology and thinking”
Quite honestly, I think you are mixing up the parties.
Trump/Mcconnel appointed 3 SCOTUS and 222 Federal judges in 4 y, 55.5/y.
Obama 2 SCOTUS and 324 Federal in 8 years, 40.5/y.
A well known saying is: “Im not a member of any organized party, Im a Democrat’
Oh, come on, you are a Brit. You’re definitely not from here. Maybe La La Land. The Senate Democrats are always lock-step. The House too. Supreme Court too. Yes, they will fight amongst each other but never break rank.
Where do you get your mis information?
Right wing media? Which ones?
They are all about feeding you red meat that makes you feel warm and fuzzy about your beliefs, and demonize everyone else. No journalistic ethics required.
Nate,
Do you find it at all suspicious that Joe Biden won 78% of Pennsylvania’s mail-in ballots?
Is that suspicion just due to my Flat Earth brain?
Yup, the total vote was 50 percent, Biden, to 49 percent Trump, but Joe Biden won 78 percent of the mail-in votes. Not suspicious at all, according to Nate, and only suspicious due to my Flat Earth brain.
No, not at all. There are clear facts and logic to explain it. Do you really not have a clue what those are?
Of course, logic, due to your non Flat Earth brain.
It would have been awful if Biden had won only 75% of the mail-in vote. God must have been watching.
Nate,
I’m waiting for your logical explanation.
Really? You really are quite un informed.
http://www.drroyspencer.com/2020/11/benfords-law-part-2-inflated-vote-totals-or-just-the-nature-of-precinct-sizes/#comment-552737
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/where-we-saw-red-and-blue-mirages-on-election-night/
More facts to help the uninformed:
https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/11/20/the-voting-experience-in-2020/
That’s your answer? I figured it would be obfuscation and misdirection.
And…?
Dont bother you with the facts?
Again, can you explain how Biden supposedly won only 50% of the total vote but 78% of the mail-in ballots? Can you explain this inconsistency? Not suspicious? No links, please. No blue meat.
Nate,
Can you explain why Pennsylvania data is so inconsistent as compared to a state like California where there were also a large number of mail-in ballots where the percentages of mail-in to in person were consistent? In California Trump gets approximately 30 percent of the mail-in ballots and 34 percent of the total vote. In Pennsylvania Trump gets 21 percent of the mail-in ballots and 49 percent of the total vote. More Democrats in California were likely to use mail-in ballots just like Pennsylvania. This isn’t suspicious? I guess I’m eating red meat with my Flat Earth brain.
Ugggh. Its called arithmetic..ever heard of it?
“No links, please. No blue meat.”
Of course all my sources must be part of the conspiracy!
https://www.inquirer.com/politics/election/mail-ballots-pennsylvania-election-trump-biden-20201119.html
2 out every 3 in person voters were Trump voters.
Hmmm I wonder if it would be the same for mail-in votes?
Yes, criminals do understand math. They didn’t need 76%; they needed 77%. And, one more percent for good measure.
The total election was practically fifty-fifty. If 2/3 of in-person voters were for Trump, which could be verified because the voter presented himself, then it is somewhat reasonable to believe that 2/3 of mail-in voters could have been for Biden. This is somewhat reasonable even though this was not the case in California, where mail-in votes tracked fairly closely with the total vote. But, almost 80 percent? No, unbelievable and suspicious.
Total mail in 2.6 M. Total votes 6.86 M. So 4.26 M in person.
How’s that work out?
78% of 2.6M? Nah, it doesn’t work. There’s something rotten in Philadelphia.
I dont know what you did Stephen. Can you do basic arithmetic? No credit unless you show your work.
It works fine for me.
In any case. The actual counts are what they are, and no one is disputing these counts.
It is comical that you think it is suspicious.
Glad you find me comical. Do you have your head buried in the sand? Yes, the numbers are being disputed in the Pennsylvania State House today.
Not really. It was simply a farce. Vote already certified.
In any case none of the availsble facts fit your fraud scenario.
No extra votes in the ‘suspect’ cities. Lots of extra votes in not ‘suspect’ suburbs.
But no matter. Youve got belief.
The vote has been uncertified.
Nope. Its done. A court halted the next steps temporarily.
stephen…you just described the politically-correct Democrats.
Nate,
Here you are. Rudy lays it out, step by step. Even you should be able to understand.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqUrkIIK_3s
If you take away the 682,000 fraudulent ballots in PA, then you have 1.8M mail-in ballots. This gives us 30 percent for Trump and 70 percent for Biden for mail-in, close to California. Slightly more believable, don’t you think? The Dems needed those 682,000 fraudulent ballots for Biden to win. Do you understand this math?
Rudy says the counting stopped overnight in PA. That is one of many falsehoods. The counting continued through the night. I watched the PA tallies as they changed on Fox and CNN into the morning.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/LB-penn-01.png?w=700
I fast-forwarded to his spruiking a cigar company, and to his second advertisement for a law firm.
All we’re seeing is the same things that have already been dismissed in court endlessly recycled. Most of those are easily refutable anyway by anyone with an internet connection and the ability to read statutes.
How Rudy imagines it?
Ha ha ha! How can anyone take him seriously?
All those people he put behind bars take him seriously.
Yes indeed. Rudy today is a hollow shell of Rudy 30 y ago. He has destroyed his own reputation. He has no credibility anymore.
That’s your argument? Rudy is a hollow shell of what he once was. It would help if you guys refreshed your propaganda playbook.
Response to YOUR argument that Rudy puts people behind bars.
Can you provide any evidence that he is a hollow shell? I need to see the evidence. Because he has no credibility with the left doesn’t mean he has no credibility before the court. Does anyone who is a Trump supporter have any credibility with the left? Does Linn Wood have any credibility? Sidney Powell? Jenna Ellis? Jerome Sekulow? Does Victor Davis Hanson or Thomas Sowell? That you are stating Rudy has no credibility, has no credibility.
“Because he has no credibility with the left doesn’t mean he has no credibility before the court.”
Ok, let’s see what the judges have to say of Giuliani’s return to the court after a 30-year absence.
1 week ago:
“…this Court has been presented with strained legal arguments without merit and speculative accusations, unpled in the operative complaint and unsupported by evidence…
This claim, like Frankenstein’s Monster, has been haphazardly stitched together.”
https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.pamd.127057/gov.uscourts.pamd.127057.202.0_1.pdf
Today’s case fared no better.
“Charges require specific allegations and then proof. We have neither here…”
The opinion was written by Judge Stephanos Bibas, who was appointed to the court by Trump. The other two judges were appointed by President George W. Bush.
The panel called the Trump claims “vague and conclusory” and said they failed to allege discrimination because they did not contend that Trump voters or election observers were treated differently than those for President-elect Joe Biden. ”
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/appeals-court-deals-trump-giuliani-pennsylvania-lawsuit-yet-another-blow-n1249144
And then legal experts say this:
“Rudy Giuliani was brought in to lead an “elite strike force” of lawyers to guide President Donald Trump’s legal challenges to the 2020 election, but their efforts have been “dysfunctional” and “an embarrassment,” based on “unsubstantiated evidence” and “outlandish claims,” legal experts told NBC News.
“It’s beyond an embarrassment,” said lawyer Glenn Kirschner. “It’s both really poor lawyering and it has the worst possible motive behind it. It’s all in the name of overturning the will of American voter….”
“…This is like Bush v. Gore, but replace James Baker with the editor of a QAnon subreddit… It’s not competent lawyering. There are strategic errors, typographical errors every kind of error you can make in a case.”
“It’s as dysfunctional a litigation strategy as I’ve ever seen.”
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/beyond-embarrassment-legal-experts-say-trump-giuliani-s-floundering-efforts-n1248667
These are quotes, and from the presiding judges, too.
The lawyering is incompetent, and the criticism is the same as other judges have been saying about other cases for three weeks. No evidence. Strained legal argument.
Here are your Republican-appointed judges giving a withering verdict to Giuliani’s case. Another box is ticked for you. But I fear you will always have a never-ending supply of excuses to pollute the source. And in so doing, you mire yourself in an opinion rather than test it.
Yep, sorry the judges arent the problem.
Evidence that Guiliani and his team are ridiculous? Not from the Left?
Ok. Trump supporter Chris Christie, calls the Giuliani legal team a “national embarassment”.
Seriously, Stephen, you need to step out of your bias confirming information bubble.
“This gives us 30 percent for Trump and 70 percent for Biden for mail-in, close to California. Slightly more believable?”
No. Why is 70 30 better? Not obvious.
The actual votes counted are more believable than invented ones..
We finally agree on something. It is real votes that should count.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.yahoo.com/amphtml/rudy-giuliani-admits-exaggerating-claims-065554193.html
Did you watch the clip? Maybe you should before you post links.
160,000 Republican mail-in ballots in Pennsylvania were not counted, 42% of Republican mail-in ballots. Something rotten in Pennsylvania, folks.
Puleeez!
That little factoid just NOW appearing? That is actually something you should be suspicious of.
Do you understand that Rudy and friends constantly make such declarations without evidence?
Dead guys in Venezuela? Cmon!
Do you even require evidence to believe things?
https://time.com/5914377/donald-trump-no-evidence-fraud/
“Donald Trump And His Lawyers Are Making Sweeping Allegations of Voter Fraud In Public. In Court, They Say No Such Thing”
Rudy in Pa court: ‘This is not a fraud case’
You and your media sycophants keep conflating information. He wasn’t alleging fraud in that filing. He is alleging fraud to the legislature and will to the Supreme Court.
That wasn’t Rudy who made that claim. It was a different group that is investigating the election.
If he is claiming massive fraud, then in which court did he file that?
Which fraud case has not been rejected in court?
Are you that gullible? Where is your skepticism of claims without evidence?
“wasnt alleging fraud in that filing. He is alleging fraud to the legislature and will to the Supreme Court.”
Do uou understand how a case makes it to the SCOTUS? It is not via the legislature.
They will not be the judge of the merits of a fraud case. That is done in lower courts. They take a case if there is an unresolved constitutional issue.
Yes, I don’t think he is only pursuing legislative means. Did you watch the video? He has to make a Constitutional case to the Supreme Court, the part about the judicial and executive branches of Pennsylvania changing the voting rules and not the legislature. Again, you keep going off on tangents and assumptions.
Do you realize if a lower court rejects a case that it can be appealed to a higher court? He is arguing in both state and federal court while appealing to the legislature. Do you realize a Pennsylvania judge just halted certification of Pennsylvania? That is evidence he is using many avenues.
I don’t know what courts. I’m not following his filings. I don’t believe it will be a dead issue until Rudy says it is a dead issue. I think Pennsylvania and Michigan are the two key states. Neither state should certify their elections.
Rudy was asking the legislature to send their own electors, instead of the ones selected by the legal process set out by state law (passed by the legislature).
No chance that illegal action will happen.
He made false claims, such as that more mail in ballots were recieved than sent out.
Shameless!
You need to simply realize, that Rudy has made many allegations. Unless they can be proven in court, they are just allegations, not facts. Thus far none have.
The SC or state legislature cannot fly in and save the day.
Yes, the state legislature can save the day. They can choose not to certify the electors. It doesn’t matter if the executive branch certifies unless the legislature agrees. What do you think of this data scientist’s testimony?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLNgj5_Zpus
“It doesnt matter if the executive branch certifies unless the legislature agrees.”
False, Stephen, they cannot go around Pa state law, which sets the method of selecting electors.
Obviously this law was passed by the legislature and signed by the governor.
That would be ‘stealing the election’ from the voters.
Hey Gordon,
Smartmatic devices were used only in Los Angeles. Here is the system (VSAP).
https://www.smartmatic.com/case-studies/article/los-angeles-county-voting-solutions-for-all-people/
If you search for the use of Smartmatic devices in the US, only Los Angeles gets the hit, with the VSAP.
https://tinyurl.com/y2h57mbo
The Trump campaign legal team never named the locations where they contended Smartmatic machines were used, never brought the matter into the courtroom, and the woman standing with Giuliani making the claims has now been disowned by Trump’s legal team. Trump had named her as part of his wonderful team of legal representatives, Giuliani introduced her as part of the team on stage less than a week ago, and stood by her side as she detailed the allegations you have swallowed, like a muppet. But now the Trump campaign is saying she is not part of the team, and is acting on her own.
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-55040756
When her theories lack any evidence, when she gets the facts wrong, when the BBC, Fox and CNN all reject her claims, and the Trump campaign disowns her, what or who who is left to give her theories credibility?
Answer: those for whom facts are not important.
A jackass says he will only accept the results of an election if he wins; then, after losing, cries fraud – and the minions lap it up.
Unbelievable. Even someone as smart as Dr. Spencer.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KQJzt48wXbA
snape….”A jackass says he will only accept the results of an election if he wins; then, after losing, cries fraud and the minions lap it up”.
This is typical of your inability to think clearly. I am sure Trump will accept the results once his legal options have been exhausted. The Democrats never did accept their loss, whining for 4 years about Russian collusion and trying everything to have Trump removed from office.
barry…”Judge Brann is described as fair and impartial (by Republican senator Pat Toomey)”.
I don’t care what Toomey said, the judge revealed himself incapable of make an impartial decision when he claimed he would not hear an argument that would disenfranchise several million voters. Of course, he was referring to Democrat voters not the Republican voters who would have welcomed an impartial decision.
What the heck difference does it make who is inconvenienced, the law is supposed to be about justice, not emotion?
Gordon,
That’s a judge who doesn’t understand the Constitution. He believes voting is a right. He probably also believes health care is a right. Like Nate, our Brit friend who believes health care is a right. But, owning a firearm is not a right.
Another climate skeptic who now also sees himself qualified to set aside court decisions with a stroke of a pen.
So the American constitution has no provisions on the right to vote? The original constitution had no such provisions, but the constitutional amendments Fifteenth, Nineteenth, and Twenty-sixth presuppose the existence of such a right, and a number of court decisions from the 1960s clearly establish the principle of “one person, one vote.”
The 15th Amendment doesn’t grant anyone the right to vote. It only outlaws discrimination due to race with regards to voting rights. Again, the 19th Amendment doesn’t grant anyone the right to vote. It only prevents discrimination due to gender concerning voting rights. Same with the 26th amendment regarding age. There is no Constitutional right to vote. If there is, I missed it.
Rune,
Also, you must be an outsider. There have been all kinds of unconstitutional court decisions.
Any number of court decisions which dismembered the limits on government the people agreed to as described by the Constitution.
Yes, the courts totally ignore the 10th Amendment unless they somehow see that it favors an activist cause.
Yes, the founders were East coast elitists who thought only they were smart enough to select the leaders.
You guys are demonstrating that they were partly correct. Given the vote, the majority are quite willing to take away minority rights.
Though there is equal protection in the Constitution. If one group gets to vote, then other groups must be allowed.
How states pick their electors is in state laws or Constitutions. All have laws giving people the right to pick the electors by their votes.
As such, to throw out the votes of some, as you guys seem happy to do would violate equal protection in the Constitution. And would be illegal under state laws.
Wow, we can tell you are very respectful of our founders. They were anything but elites; they were enlightened. But, I guess you think Marx was enlightened? I don’t think throwing out any votes would be correct. However, Pennsylvania should not certify any electors because of the fraud. If a state can’t run a free and transparent election, then their electors are bogus.
“However, Pennsylvania should not certify any electors because of the fraud” that remains a fantasy of a cult, lacking evidence.
They were the wealthiest landvowners, and most educated, lawyers, etc.
They were elites for sure. Enlightened also.
Were Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, or James Madison elitists?
stephen…”I guess you think Marx was enlightened?”
For the times in which he lived, he was enlightened. He protested the plight of the working class poor and how they were abused by the corporate class. He has been made a villain by modernists who have taken his work completely out of the context in which it was intended. He has been vilified based on the brutality of idiots, like Lenin and Stalin, who stole his ideas and implemented them in a Draconian manner, while outlawing capitalist enterprise.
The Russia of Lenin and Stalin had no intention of implementing a democratic communism, one in which the people agreed to live and abide by its tenets. Given the option, most Russians would likely have opted out. In China, circa 1915, Sun Yat Sen proposed democracy in China and the Chinese people did not trust it. In fact, the Imperialist powers like Britain, the US and China opposed democracy for China due to the interference it would cause for their Imperialist cause.
The brutal Bolshevik regime was forced on people as a reactionary movement to oppose Tsarism. They had no idea where they were going, Bolsheviks were no more than an angry mob using the Russian people as forced labour.
If anyone is going to criticize Marx then they need to take a closer look at the capitalists of the day and their abhorrent treatment of the working class. Marx makes no sense today but in his day he made a lot of sense to the working class. There are people today who think the working class should still have no rights.
Marx was a utopianist and a leftist. He would have agreed with Lenin and Stalin. He didn’t appreciate or understand free markets or human nature, or the Pareto Principle.
stephen…”He didn’t appreciate or understand free markets or human nature, or the Pareto Principle”.
Why would he when the free marketeers of his day treated workers abysmally? They even forced children to work. People were thrown in jail for having debts.
Obviously, I don’t agree with the free marker/free enterprise mindset. Capitalists have to be responsible to the rest of society in a democratic society. As one politician put it, they must be good corporate citizens.
Having said that, I totally disagree with the Democrat vision. I think they are politically-correct twits.
I have nothing against democratic capitalism having been in business during my life. I strived not to rip people off. However, capitalism as it stands is just as extreme as Marxist Utopia. Maybe one day we’ll reach a happy medium.
Gordon,
You’re getting left and right, and capitalism and Marxism discombobulated a little. The capitalists who had people thrown into debtors’ prisons were leftists capitalists. They used the power of government to enslave people, much like southern plantation owners. They were also leftists. Bankers who had people thrown in debtor’s prisons were leftists mostly. People on the right, conservatives believe in limited government. They would not use the government to throw other people in prison for their own gains. That is not how true free-market capitalism works. Banks, government printing money, loans, etc., are mostly tools of the left.
“Leftists capitalists”, groovy.
So anyone who abuses the system for personal gain is a leftist, and conservatives would never do that?
This patently biased worldview is patent. The word ‘leftist’ loses all meaning.
No, conservatives are not intrinsically or ideologically more moral than liberals. That IS the basis of your remarks after all.
The opposite of conservative is progressive or left, not liberal. Yes, conservatives are inherently more moral than leftists. It isn’t even debatable. Leftists murder millions of people. They enslave people. What did the Nazis do? The Marxists? Stalinists? Maoists? What free republic murders millions of people? None. Conservative capitalists don’t murder people. Leftist capitalists do. Look at Southern plantation owners. Yes, children used to work in factories. They were not enslaved. Their parents had them work. Children used to not go to school. It was the world in which they lived.
What grade are you in, Stephen?
Svante put his finger right on your strange ignorance.
Calling plantation owners leftists – I mean it’s just absurd.
Can’t expand your brain a lick? What does a leftist do? He uses the government to take wealth, labor, property, liberty, etc., and give it to another. What did the plantation owners do?
How did Lincoln describe the Southern Plantation owner? He described their view as “you work, I eat.” That is a leftist.
Stephen is chock full of these pearls of non-wisdom.
He has his own private, totally weird definition of Leftist.
It doesnt agree with anyone else’s definition, but that matters not a bit!
Do you really think Marx was the creator of leftist ideology? Leftist ideology has been with us since there have been civilizations. Julius Caesar was a leftist. Leftist ideology and its practice are what has caused every great civilization to collapse.
It seems like ‘Leftist’ is all encompassing for you.
Even Antifa, which are anti-Fascists are Leftist, most would say.
And Stephen you are ready to fight with Antifa.
But you say Fascists are Leftists? Which you hate.
So you antiFa, but you want fight with Antifa because….
Another nugget, “Julius Caesar was a leftist”.
“Leftist ideology and its practice are what has caused every great civilization to collapse.”
I’ve got to know – what do you think leftist ideology is? Taxation?
Then everyone is a leftist, including Trump.
The only way to prove this election was fraudulent would be a forensic examination of the data. This will take months to years. However, the people know innately that there was something wrong with this election. The common anomalies in the battleground states were too implausible.
Well, Trump told everyone months in advance that the election would be fraudulent unless he won. So when he lost the fraud is undeniable – according to his supporters. Unfortunately, his team of incompetent lawyers are unable to protect his obvious right to continue as president. Poor guy – it is really unfair!
“fraudulent would be a forensic examination of the data. This will take months to years.”
That will keep you guys angry for at least 4 years of fund raising!
The only other way is if they could actually catch the guys who perpetrated this or have a whistleblower.
>>>However, the people know innately that there was something wrong with this election. The common anomalies in the battleground states were too implausible.
So the people have a collective sense of complicated statistical models? It is conceivable that the people have this feeling because they have been carpet bombed with false allegations of election fraud.
Rune,
I suppose you are from somewhere besides the USA? Why are so many outsiders interested in the outcome of our election?
“Usually the feeling is right, whether or not the person who knows it can describe why they know it.”
Hmmm, what if other people have the opposite feelings? What to do?
Maybe look at the evidence to decide.
They are looking at the evidence right now in the Pennsylvania State House. Those late-night votes look suspicious.
Those late night votes in Pennsylvania:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/LB-penn-01.png?w=700
Gee, somehow the committee seems to have missed that Trump got more votes overnight in PA than Biden.
Want to know what looks suspicious? 34 lawsuits and 31 dismissed. 2 successes that have nothing to do with election fraud.
Want to know what looks suspicious? Trump campaign lawyers claiming election fraud to the press but not contending it in court.
The whole thing is a big charade. But it gives comfort to Trump supporters so they buy right in.
Barry,
When most people went to bed on election night, Trump had a several hundred thousand vote lead in Pennsylvania. So how does your link jive with reality?
It jives perfectly well with actual reality, as well as my recollection. I remember it took days for Biden to pull ahead of Trump in PA, not overnight.
At 10am Wednesday morning Trump still led by 590 000. You woke up to that. I was still awake.
https://triblive.com/news/pennsylvania/timeline-how-pennsylvania-broke-for-biden-as-trumps-early-lead-evaporated/
Biden pulled ahead 3 days later, on Friday.
But if you listen to Giuliani and Trump spin it, apparently that lead disappeared overnight from Tuesday to Wednesday.
And that is precisely what you believe, even though that didn’t happen. And you believe it because you are swallowing BS without batting an eyelid.
I think you have forgotten that Biden led Trump in the early tallies in PA on election day, and Trump took the lead in the evening.
The Times of Israel kept a blog running on US election day.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog-november-4-2020/
Israel is 7 hours ahead of Pennsylvania.
10:22pm PA time
“Biden’s lead in Pennsylvania is down to about 5 points, but with only about 18% of the vote counted.”
10:54pm PA time
“With about 33 percent of the vote tallied, Trump is up by nearly 200,000 votes.”
Click on the link, search via ‘Pennsylvania’ and you will find the 2 Times of Israel blog entries right next to each other.
Yes, these tallies and the timeline all jive with reality, and not with the ridiculous claim that Trump lost his lead in PA ‘overnight’ from Tuesday to Wednesday.
That doesn’t really prove anything. It is just the nature of the way precincts report. The problem I continue to have is Biden received almost 80% of the mail-in vote. BS. (He had to because that was the only way the cheats could overcome Trump.)
When I went to bed at around 11:00 pm, Trump was several hundred thousand up in Pennsylvania with almost all of the in-person vote counted.
And when you woke up Trump was several hundred thousand votes ahead, also.
That is what actually happened.
Hillary won Philadelphia with 82% of the vote.
So it makes perfect sense if the main part of the mail ins came from Philly, plus mail in votes are largely Dem anyway thanks to Trump telling his people to vote on the day, that Biden would get the lion’s share of the mail ins.
And it was predicted by many well in advance that this is how it would fall out.
It’s not surprising. It’s not wrong.
Knowing anything about statistical analysis is not related to knowing something is wrong.
Usually the feeling is right, whether or not the person who knows it can describe why they know it.
stephen…”The only way to prove this election was fraudulent would be a forensic examination of the data. This will take months to years”.
Let’s get on with it. No need to examine the walk in votes, the examination needs to be of the mail-in votes. That should only take a month or a few at most. Meantime, democracy will be served and no harm will come to the US.
I am hoping this gets to the Supreme Court where a decision can be made on the authenticity of the mail-in vote and whether further examination is required.
“No need to examine the walk in votes, the examination needs to be of the mail-in votes. ”
But 4 years ago there were millions of illegal votes for Clinton … according to Trump. And those were walk-in votes.
“That should only take a month or a few at most. ”
And yet in the 4 years since 2016:
a) Those millions of votes were never found.
b) no serious efforts were made to prevent similar problems in the future.
In both 2016 and 2020, it was never really about actual problems with voting. It was about ego and image. I think this time around, there will be actual efforts to shore up the system. Not because of significant, widespread problems, but to prevent politicians from lying and blustering and bullying and complaining in an effort to rewrite the clear election results.
Tim…”But 4 years ago there were millions of illegal votes for Clinton according to Trump. And those were walk-in votes. ”
Four years ago we were not in the midst of a hysterical reaction to a manageable contagion. The rules were quickly changed for mail-in voting to accommodate covid concerns and it was obviously not well thought out. In fact, I think the Democrats used the situation to stuff ballot boxes, they were that desperate.
I have a feeling that privately, Trump knows he got his ass kicked in a fair election.
Hurray for feelings!
No, I don’t think he knows that at all.
I agree Stephen, grandiose narcissists can not admit failure.
It will help if you reread the characteristics of a narcissist.
snape….I would not call a 0.25% difference in the Georgia popular vote an ass-kicking. That’s what Trump is fighting, the election was so close and there have been reports of voter fraud.
There have also been reports of aliens abducting people.
Those are usually Democrat voters.
He said without one tittle of data to back up his asinine bias.
Well, I couldn’t help it. Looks like you’re wrong, Stephen.
https://www.newsweek.com/aliens-abduction-miami-herald-republican-candidate-bettina-rodriguez-aguilera-1081360
https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/survey-shows-republicans-conspiracy-theories-article-1.1306229
But I might have misunderstood you. Were you saying that aliens tend to abduct more Democrats than Republicans?
Not all Republicans are conservatives. All Democrats are leftists.
All generalizations are bullshit
People are always committing fraud in elections involving Trump.
In 2016 he tweeted Based on the fraud committed by Senator Ted Cruz during the Iowa Caucus, either a new election should take place or Cruz results nullified.
Quotes vanished. Should be “Based on the fraud committed by Senator Ted Cruz during the Iowa Caucus, either a new election should take place or Cruz results nullified.”
Whatever may have been my political opinions before, I have but one sentiment now. That is, we have a Government, and laws and a flag, and they must all be sustained. There are but two parties now, traitors and patriots and I want hereafter to be ranked with the latter, and I trust, the stronger party.
I know only two tunes: one of them is “Yankee Doodle,” and the other isn’t.
snape…”I know only two tunes: one of them is Yankee Doodle, and the other isnt”.
You could try whistling Dixie.
you have no idea Mr. Creosote!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGGlnHe3Rgc
https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/LB-penn-01.png?w=700
The alarm was sounded several months ago when the idea of mass mailing unasked-for ballots by the millions to God knows where was promoted. The news media would not distinguish the difference between absentee voting vs. the mass mail outs. When an individual voter requests a ballot to be sent to him/her, that voter receives the ballot, fills it out, signs it, and sends it back. I did this while I was working in Alaska back in 2012. I am registered to vote in Texas, but I was going to be working in Alaska on election day. I mailed the ballot in from Alaska. This is how absentee voting is supposed to work.
But this mass mail out of ballots to everybody and their dog was an obviously flawed method of carrying out an election. And this was clearly a scheme to favor one political party over the other. Note how one political party was all in for this flawed method of voting while the other party was opposed. Plus, this method of voting was already a proven disaster on a smaller scale in congressional runoff elections in New York and New Jersey. Also note that the political party that pushed the mass mail outs was also the one that removed signature verification and time stamps from the ballots. You don’t think that is a recipe for voter fraud?
Well, the alarm was sounded that the feces would hit the fan in the 2020 election months ago. And here we all are. Surprise!
rob…”the alarm was sounded that the feces would hit the fan in the 2020 election months ago…”
It should be investigated no matter how long it takes. When Biden managed to make up 500,000 votes in Pennsylvania using mail-in votes, that’s ground for an investigation. Especially after the governor of Pennsylvania bragging that Trump would never win there.
It is a shame it has come to this. Of course, COVID is the excuse given for the mass mail outs. It was the justification. But the real motive was to manufacture enough votes in the swing states to produce the desired outcome of a presidential election.
Legally cast votes are not “manufactured”! They are votes! The idea the votes that don’t agree with you are less ‘real’ is a dangerous position!
In key states this cycle (GA, PA, MI), voters had to request ballots. No ballots automatically mailed out. No ballot applications automatically mailed out. Many states modified their rules. But these were Republican states, Democratic states, and swing states. Each state makes its own rules, and Democrats are not in a position to force states to change the rules. Or maybe Republican-controlled states also desired Biden, so they changed the rules to help him.
That actually isn’t true, Tim. Examiners are coming out with all kinds of examples of ballots being mailed out to post office boxes and people who did not request them. Linn Wood was also granted an expedited review in Georgia last night by the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals.
But that review seems to have little chance.
https://www.11alive.com/article/news/politics/elections/lin-wood-suit-appeal-appears-unlikely-to-be-heard-by-11th-circuit/85-61848107-14c5-4a02-8763-622b2d5e6c5b
We keep hearing about “all kinds of evidence”, yet it always seems to evaporate before getting to court. If there were “all kinds of evidence” something real would happen, not just press conferences to raise money for Trump from gullible followers.
No, it is just too difficult to collate it all and in time. That’s what the left is counting on. The courts will usually require enough evidence to show that it would affect the outcome of the election. If there is a hundred thousand vote spread, you have to find one hundred thousand pieces of evidence. Difficult to do that in five weeks.
You’re fantasizing. And poorly, too.
You don’t need to gather every ballot for evidence, you just need to demonstrate that any significant fraction of them has a common problem.
No legal case for election ever relied on challenging each individual vote for reasons specific to the individual vote. That is absurd.
You defense has been absurd. Ther lawsutis are absurd.
And when SCOTUS dismisses Giuliani’s case with prejudice, will you still be claiming “something fishy” without any reliable evidence or merit of argument?
Or will you finally be satisfied that due process has concluded wisely?
Hey Barry, I hope you’re right. But, we don’t know what case will go before the Supreme Court.
The PA case Giuliani stepped in to contunue after 2 law firms withdrew their people from it. That’s being appealed to the SCOTUS after the Supreme Court dismissed the first appeal as futile.
“If there is a hundred thousand vote spread, you have to find one hundred thousand pieces of evidence. Difficult to do that in five weeks.”
Yep, evidence manufacturing takes time and $$. Its doubtful we will have manufactured enough fraud in time for the next election without the repeated funding support of many many gullible people.
DT has a history of declaring fraud, and given enough time to investigate it, none is ever found.
We’ve got the Obama Birther fraud.
We’ve got Ted Cruz in the 2016 Iowa Caucus.
We’ve got Hillary winning the popular vote by 3 Million.
DT was absolutely certain that fraud explained it. Yet what did his crack Fraud Investigative Team headed by Kris Koback find?
Nothing.
Can you see a pattern here, Stephen?
Nate, the US has a history of election fraud, especially in certain areas. Leftists will do anything to advance their agenda. Look at you guys.
Stephen,
Acquaint us with this history of election fraud, and in the areas you think matter.
Please, more than just hot air. Link something.
“Look at you guys”
Yeah, trying to confuse you with facts and logic.
That is so low down and dirty.
Among the close states, only Nevada sent out ballots to all voters.
You are correct that casual voters tend to vote Democrat. Since there is no real argument against high turnout, this is probably the way future elections will be run.
In which states were ballots mass mailed out unrequested? Hmmmm?
The disinformation campaign has been incredibly successful. People are just saying stuff that isn’t true with great earnestness, and going numb and dumb when called on it.
Still no reliable evidence of widespread voter fraud, and yet Trump supporters believe there is.
barry says:
November 26, 2020 at 6:32 PM
…Still no reliable evidence of widespread voter fraud…
Widespread means what, all 50 states? Well then you would be right. If it’s just those three or four swing states? That would be a bit different. Can you say “Spin”? I knew you could.
Barry, you won’t reconsider any opinion. You do nothing but trumpet every leftist cause. You troll this board and probably many others espousing your grand utopianist vision.
“espousing your grand utopianist vision”
You’re off with the fairies, mate. I have done no such thing. I haven’t said one word on any kind of utpoian vision.
You are crazy.
What I’m mainlyh doing here is countering disinformation, against a few peoploe like yourself who don’t bother substantiating anything. You’re just delivering repackaged sounbytes from Giuliani and Trump.
No, widespread can mean for any individual state, including the battleground states. In fact, that is precisely what I mean.
As soon as any cxredible evidence turns up for that, I will reconsider my opinion that the Trump campaign and associates are flinging evey bit of unsubstantiated mud they can at the elctoral process in the hope that some will stick.
I think the legal win loss is 2/32 currently, and the only two successes were not at all about election fraud.
Anyway, to get back to the topic, mass mailouts of ballots occured in 9 states, none of which was a battleground state (unless you include Nevada).
It doesn’t have to be widespread. It was targeted fraud mainly in Philadelphia, Detroit, Milwaukee, Clarke County, and Fulton County.
Barry,
Here is a poll watcher data scientist testifying before the Pennsylvania State House. Would you consider this evidence? Direct testimony?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLNgj5_Zpus
Thanks for that link, it’s an expansion of the one I put up earlier. The take home is that over a 90 minute period around 700,000 votes were dumped in PA with a 175 to 1 ratio of Biden to Trump votes.
Is there a credible source for that, Steve? How are those numbers arrived at? What time did this occur? Where is the evidence?
First of all, Stephen, that is not a testimony in a court, nor in a government building.
Secondly, as others have testified and when questionned by the judge been found to be ignorant of the process or incompetent in some other way.
Why isn’t this guy in court?
Didn’t finish my sentence…
Secondly, as others have testified and when questionned by the judge been found to be ignorant of the process or incompetent in some other way, I am hardly inclined to give yet another claim much credence until tested.
“Would you consider this evidence? Direct testimony?”
You are using the phrase, “direct testimony” in order to give the claims credence. But we have seen what has happened with signed affidavits – a step above direct testimony in a meeting.
As so many testimonies have been dismissed, I am not inclined to give this one much credence. I wonder why you have not been impacted by all the other testimonies that failed over the past 3 weeks. It seems you do not weigh that at all, and it is a considerable failure.
You are hoping that one day some real evidence will come.
And all the while saying with little qualification that fraud was committed in the election.
Rather than make people sit through youtube videos – try to get transcripts and quote the relevant parts. People – like me – are not inclined to sit through video for tens of minutes wondering when someone will get to whatever point the linker has not enunciated.
Stop being vague. It’s probably hard with such vague accusations to rely on, but please provide concrete stuff.
Here is a link to the transcript of that event, including the gravitas-laden serviceman:
https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/pennsylvania-senate-republican-lawmaker-hearing-transcript-on-2020-election
November 27, 2020 at 5:18 PM
Is there a credible source for that, Steve? How are those numbers arrived at? What time did this occur? Where is the evidence?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGGlnHe3Rgc
I posted that without comment above.
Hmmm it was 570,000 votes for BIden and 3200 for Trump. That’s 178 to 1 that I rounded to 175 to 1 and rounding 570,000 to 600,000 came up with a typo to 700,000.
Obviously from your four questions, you’re going to dispute those numbers in the you tube link. If you follow that link you will find a transcript in the comments from yours truly with the numbers.
I only know what I see on the internet. Depends on where you go. Is the claim that PA received 700,000 more absentee votes than it mailed out true or fake news? This election is much like “Global Warming” it looks fishy. The guy who’s party wants to defund the police, ban fossil fuels and require everyone to wear a mask everywhere wins?
Yes, but when and where did these things happen? Specifically, what time and place? It’s all the same allegations with missing specifics that have been thrown out of court.
I think these people have been enlisted to tell a story that “looks fishy.” They even believe it. But it all lacks specifics, which is why you can’t provide any.
Given the lack of time and place, why is this guy’s testimony any more credible than the swathe of failed testimony over the past 3 weeks in multiple states?
What makes him the really real one? Gut feelings?
Steve, “I only know what I see on the internet. Depends on where you go. Is the claim that PA received 700,000 more absentee votes than it mailed out true or fake news?”
I think this is the issue. Where are you reading such stories? Are they sources with journalistic standards?
His story is credible because he is an experienced election official, poll watcher, and data scientist. He recognizes suspicious behavior, evasiveness, and deceit.
When is his claim being submitted to a court?
‘Data scientist’ is irrelevant to his observation.
The committee is a partisan agenda planning group, not a real bipartisan legislative committee. He was not sworn in, and there was no cross examination.
Why did he wait 3 weeks to report this serious accusation? Why didnt he tell overseeing officials on that day in real time?
There were cameras in the counting room. Where is the video?
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/11/09/this-map-shows-how-biden-won-back-pennsylvania-in-the-2020-election.html
Again, you guys need to look at the pattern of votes this year compared to 2016, to see that the pattern does not fit the FRAUD scenario being presented.
Biden improved in many counties in Pa over Hillary, by a few % points, wile in Philly county he lost a couple of points.
Nothing unusual in Delaware county where our ‘data scientist’ reported big anomalies, compared to other counties.
“Biden significantly improved upon Clintons margins in the areas surrounding Philadelphia. He won Delaware County by about 26 percentage points, after his predecessor as the Democratic nominee carried it by 22 points.
In Montgomery County, his 26 percentage point advantage beat out Clintons 21-point edge. Biden also carried Chester County by about 17 percentage points, compared with the former secretary of states roughly 10 percentage point margin of victory.
Further north, Biden won Lackawanna County by more than 8 percentage points. Clinton carried the area, which includes the president-elects hometown of Scranton, by about 3 points.
It wasnt just eastern Pennsylvania that boosted Biden. He improved upon Clintons margins in the blue counties of Dauphin, where the state capital of Harrisburg sits, and Centre County, which includes Penn State University.
He also saw a bump in support in western Pennsylvania. Allegheny County, home to the states second-most populous city, Pittsburgh, backed Biden by about 20 percentage points. Clinton won the area by roughly 17 percentage points in 2016.”
Stephen “you wont reconsider any opinion. You do nothing but trumpet every anti-leftist cause.”
Good example right here:
“. It was targeted fraud mainly in Philadelphia, Detroit, Milwaukee, Clarke County, and Fulton County.”
I showed you that the voting data out of Philly, Detroit, and Milwaukee, and the rest of their respective states, simply FAIL to fit that scenario.
http://www.drroyspencer.com/2020/11/benfords-law-part-2-inflated-vote-totals-or-just-the-nature-of-precinct-sizes/#comment-557799
But here you are repeating the claim, ignoring the contradictory facts!
The analysis by Spencer does not contradict fraud. He is just showing that Benford’s Law doesn’t necessarily identify fraud.
Not what I showed you. Look at the comment linked. It is showing Trump gaining votes in ‘suspect’ cities, Biden gaining votes in ‘not suspect’ suburbs all over.
In the fraud scenario, for example, Biden must gain hundreds of thousands votes in Detroit, to win Michigan by 150,000.
He simply didnt gain in Detroit, but did all over rest of Michigan.
The fraud scenario simply doesnt fit reality.
Does that matter, Stephen?
Pennsylvania State legislature is starting to balk at giving electors to Biden.
No, you referenced an article by the Philadelphia Examiner. Who knows if it is even accurate. But, I just wanted to concede the point you made, which is a good one. Before the election, the leftist narrative was that Trump was losing the Suburban female vote. It would make sense that if they were going to stuff ballot boxes, it would be in the suburbs. But, you can assume reporting from the Philadelphia Examiner is about as accurate as Wikipedia. The Examiner says Trump did a lot better in Philadelphia than last time. Maybe he would have done even better if some of Philadelphia’s boxes hadn’t been stuffed. That article doesn’t really prove anything. But I liked your point.
“But, you can assume reporting from the Philadelphia Examiner is about as accurate as Wikipedia.”
If you think their reporting of the vote counts in various Pa counties is not accurate, it is easily fact checked with the State website.
So go ahead and check!
Let me know what you find.
I doubt you will, because it will prove your narrative wrong.
Belief, without evidence, that the mainstream media lies gives you a warm and fuzzy self-righteous feeling.
Why mess that up with a fact-check?
Not the Pa State House. It is a Republican only group of State Senators meeting in a hotel. No cross examination. Sworn in? Unclear.
Fox News described it as the Pennsylvania State Legislature. That was their caption under the video.
Fox exaggerated. It was a meeting convened at a hotel by a policy unit within the PA Republican senate. Not the legislature – no Democrats invited, wrong forum etc.
https://policy.pasenategop.com/
Fox is being Fox. Brazenly partisan. Yawn.
Actually no. Fox has been hard on Trump lately, calling all claims fraudulent and being blatantly anti-Trump.
No, they’ve promoted most of the election fraud claims without qualifying that they lack substance.
Tucker Carlson took exception to Sidney Powell’s claims recently, and who can blame him? They are wild, fanciful, false in demonstrable fact and otherwise completely unsubstatiated. And it’s still remarkable that Carlson chose not to sing that particular prayer. It’s got to take something quite unholy to make Tucker Carlson drop a juicy conspiracy theory.
The high garbage of her claims is no doubt why the Trump legal campaign took the otherwise unnecessary step of distancing itself from her.
I went over to Fox to see their latest fraud allegation articles, and guess what – they have a whole section called Voter Fraud Concerns:
https://www.foxnews.com/category/politics/elections/voter-fraud-concerns
Updated daily.
I noticed that there had been a couple of segments elsewhere on their site where a reporter had said many of the fraud claims were without substance. That’s unexpected, but at least it stops them being utterly biased trash.
But otherwise Fox is reliably the dispatch office for the Republican party. Your favourite hits are being promoted there, Stephen. For example:
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/pa-poll-watcher-a-navy-vet-alleges-missing-usb-cards-up-to-120000-questionable-votes
Not one sentence quetioning the allegations in that article. Just regurgitating the Trump campaign talking points. That’s Fox being Fox.
“Fox News described it as the Pennsylvania State Legislature. That was their caption under the video”
Stephen, this story is quite easy to find. You simply need to break out of your information bubble.
I know you leftists want Fox censored because they’re reporting what’s in the news, which are instances of election irregularities and fraud, but those darn Bill of Rights keep getting in your way.
You can’t keep your story straight, Stephen.
In the space of two posts you go from saying Fox is rejecting all Trump election fraud claims to then defending Fox for reporting Trump election fraud claims.
It depends on what Fox reporter is reporting. Several describe Trump’s claims using the word fraudulent every time when they have no clue if they’re fraudulent claims.
It depends on whether the reporter has his head up Chris Wallace’s ass or not.
“Fox has been hard on Trump lately, calling all claims fraudulent and being blatantly anti-Trump.”
THere are reporters at Fox who follow journalistic ethics, fact-check before reporting, report facts that the govt may not like, ask hard questions in interviews of all.
Stephen thinks they’re the bad ones.
Then there are the ones that work for the Trump Propaganda Dept, like Maria Bartiromo. They have their heads very very very far up DT’s ass.
Rather than fact-checking the Dear Leader’s claims, or asking him hard questions, they fawn, cheer-lead, amplify his baseless claims.
They are the good ones, says Stephen. Stephen must think Russia Today does solid reporting. He thinks the North Korean method of journalism is the good one. He must think that Joe Goebbels did it best.
By the way, Happy Thanksgiving to Dr. Roy Spencer and the rest of my fellow weather/climate nuts.
In Wisconsin, absentee votes require a written request. There are tens of thousands of mail in ballots without the written requests. Let’s see how that works out.
Context
https://www.wisconsinwatch.org/2020/11/trump-wisconsin-ballot-recount-democratic-counties/
Hi ho, Hi ho,
It’s of to SCOTUS
We go.
The Trump team is submitting an appeal to the Supreme Court to protest the kangaroo court rulings in Pennsylvania. I thought this was the aim of the exercise all along.
So did everybody else. The Trump campaign has made no secret of its intent.
“Kangaroo court”
You’re a fantasist. 3 Republican-appointed judges presided over the latest Giuliani attempt and slammed it. You might be interested in what they said.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/us-election-republican-judges-deny-pennsylvania-appeal-trump-to-try-supreme-court/2ASHOKIC5D2VZR57DWBMUYA6ZM/
The link to the judges opinion can be found at that news item.
Lets be honest. There is no need for evidence. Gordon is hoping the SCOTUS with its new Trump appointees, will simply be loyal to him, the Dear Leader, and come up with something, anything, to throw out the election results.
And of course, he fails to understand what SCOTUS does.
Gordon Robertson aka Mr Creosote, you are a Canadian so what do you care? Anything interesting happening up there? How are those oil sands coming along, we need that oil down here so strip mine every last drop you hear!
The SCOTUS is not going to touch this case with a ten foot SCROTUS!
The spin from the Trump campaign legal effort would have you believe that several hundred thousand votes lead for Trump in Pennsylvania mysteriously vanished overnight.
The typical refrain begins, “when I woke up aftedr election day…”
It’s all BS. And provably so. We have an internet archive.
At 4:55am on Wednesday, Trump’s lead was 542,000.
https://tinyurl.com/yy8dogj7
By 5:20pm Wednesday the margin had narrowed to 303,000 votes.
https://tinyurl.com/y5xxejg2
Thursday 5:06pm the margin had narrowed to 90,542.
https://tinyurl.com/y22tsfwc
Friday 7:42 am the margin had narrowed to 8,000 votes.
https://tinyurl.com/y68z8n3m
By 10:25am, Biden pulled ahead.
https://tinyurl.com/y6myeuye
So don’t believe the spin coming from the Giuliani show. The counting didn’t stop and suddenly Trump lost his lead. It was a steady and slow change over 3 days.
barry…”The spin from the Trump campaign legal effort would have you believe that several hundred thousand votes lead for Trump in Pennsylvania mysteriously vanished overnight”.
New evidence has come to light in Pennsylvania by an ex-Navy pilot who now specializes in security. He claims to have witnessed an unidentified person with a bag full of USB thumb drives inserting and downloading data from them into a voting machine. When it was brought to the attention of the voting regulators he was ignored. When he asked for a computer audit, he was ignored.
The voting machines are supposed to be secure. How the heck does a voting machine come with a USB port that allows unknown data to be entered? Some are even connected to the Net, which is illegal.
So do you agree that Trump’s lead in PA didn’t disappear overnight from election Tuesday to Wednesday?
That is the point I demonstrated with time-stamped tallies archived on the web linked above.
I agree that on election day, Trump lead Pennsylvania by over a half-million votes, but the media would not call it, and all these mail-in ballots kept appearing that were not subject to close inspection by Republican poll watchers. And, they kept counting, and miraculously Biden gained one percent more than Trump, amazing. And, Biden received almost 80 percent of those mail-in ballots. That’s what I agree to.
Sure, that happened over three days of counting.
There were plenty mail in ballots to get through on the day, and others that had been posted on election day that arrived later – in line with PA election law. It takes time to count mail in ballots because they go through a screening process.
This is neith unusual nor unexpected. We were told for weeks prior to the election that there would be an extraordinary amount of mail in ballots. We were told by many that election day would favour Trump and then Biden should come in stronger with the mail in ballots.
Put together all this:
1) Mail in ballots heavily favour Dems. Trump said vote on the day, Joe said be safe. Trump supporters love Trump and would have mostly voted in person.
2) Mail in ballots were mostly urban voters. The largest tranches would have been urban, because of population and because COVID is heavier in the cities, prompting people to play it safe. Especially Democrats who are more likely to play it safe than Trump supporters.
3) Biden won less of the percentage of Philadelphia than Hillary did, and Trump improved there.
2016
Hilary 82.5%
Trump 15.37%
2020
Biden 82.1%
Trump 17.9%
If Hillary carried Philadelphia by 82%, it is reasonable to think Biden could carry it by 81.2%.
The final results are broadly consistent with pasty elections, and worse for Biden than polling, and very much within the bounds of likelihood.
The only reason anything seems fishy is because that theme has been hammered on for months on end by Donald Trump and his supporters.
You and Nate might want to hash that out because that is contrary to his earlier argument that Trump did well in Philadelphia. Also, mail-in ballots in 2016 were insignificant. You two are all over the place.
“You and Nate might want to hash that out because that is contrary to his earlier argument that Trump did well in Philadelphia”
I provided the percentages for Trump in my comment – which is exactly as Nate describes: an improvement from 2016 to 2020.
Read. More. Carefully.
And because you seem to have missed the point – I’m showing you the percentages in Philly in 2016 to demonstrate to you that the Democrat vote there got 82% of the vote – therefore, it is not a surprise that Biden should get nearly that percentage in 2020.
And because the majority of those mail ballots are from Pilly, and because more Democrats that Republicans did mail-ins, the mail ballots were, predictably, heavily in favour of Biden.
Do you get it now?
Adding in brackets for clarity:
And because the majority of those (Pennsylvania) mail ballots are from Pilly, and because more Democrats that Republicans did mail-ins, the mail ballots were, predictably, heavily in favour of Biden.
Typo – Biden 81.2% Philadelphia, not 82.1.
“And, they kept counting, and miraculously Biden gained one percent more than Trump, amazing. And, Biden received almost 80 percent of those mail-in ballots. That’s what I agree to.”
First of all he got 70-something percent, and in some counties much less, of mail in votes.
Just as you noted elsewhere, in all elections, the reported vote counts arrive in jumps. When a heavily red rural county reports, the republican may get 90% of the vote. When a very blue urban center reports, the Dem may get 90% of the vote.
Numbers are numbers, Stephen. Math is math. Nothing miraculous about it.
In this case D and R voters decided to separate themselves by method of voting, for thoroughly explained reasons.
If you choose to ignore this fact because it enhances your suspicions, that’s up to you.
Gordon, if the SCOTUS throws out Giuliani’s case….
Will you finally admit it isn’t worthy?
Or will you find some way to call a Republican-dominant, highest court of the land, a “kangaroo court?”
barry…”Gordon, if the SCOTUS throws out Giulianis case.
Will you finally admit it isnt worthy?”
No. I have read about too many irregularities in the vote counting process and no matter what anyone claims, I regard the process as having been tainted.
It’s not a matter of how many votes have been affected it’s about how deep does the corruption extend. Nothing short of a full investigation will satisfy me. I think Trump’s team has revealed significant evidence to raise doubt and Biden should not be declared winner till a full investigation is completed.
Time should not be a factor, it’s not good enough to declare a winner for the sake of declaring a winner. The totals are far too close to be talking like that.
Gordon,
It is possible the Pennsylvania legislature picks their electors instead of allowing the fraudulent election to pick them.
Stephen` Paul Anderson
Where are your irrefutable proofs that the election was ‘fraudulent’ ?
J.-P. D.
Stephen…”It is possible the Pennsylvania legislature picks their electors instead of allowing the fraudulent election to pick them”.
Will be interesting. I still think SCOTUS should rule on this, especially in Pennsylvania. Prior to the election at least one SCOTUS judge commented that the mail-in procedure there seemed unconstitutional.
A full investigation into election fraud is required even if it takes several months. When you have a voting machine that can accept a USB thumb drive and allegations of voting machines that can be accessed online, all of that needs a proper investigation, not by Biden, before Biden gets any access to the WH.
“I have read about too many irregularities in the vote counting process”
Yes Gordon, I have also been reading about the Flat Earth. Too many irregularities to be a coincidence. I think it should be thoroughly investigated before we allow any more satellite launches.
“Time should not be a factor, its not good enough to declare a winner for the sake of declaring a winner.”
Our Canadian friend doesnt think the US needs a transition to a fully functioning govt anytime soon.
Thanks for your input Gordon. We will file that tidbit where it belongs.
How do you know those irregularities are genuine issues?
How can you judge that if you don’t even question them?
SCOTUS is going to throw Giuliani’s case out if they even hear it, which is doubtful. But you will still believe it has merit no matter what.
“I am sure Trump will accept the results once his legal options have been exhausted.”
You said.
But you won’t?
All your opinion needs is enough noise to pad it. You don’t need facts at all, it seems.
barry…”How do you know those irregularities are genuine issues?”
You’ll never know unless official sources investigate the claims. If Biden was so far ahead that the outcome was indisputable, that would be one thing. However, the totals are separated by only a few tenths of one percent in key states and with eye witnesses coming forward and reporting irregularities, it seems only fair they be heard in an unbiased court.
Judges throwing out cases without hearing from such eye-witnesses is not democratic.
Judges considered the testimonial evidence and found it lacking.
“Judges throwing out cases without hearing from such eye-witnesses is not democratic.”
Courts are not democratic. That’s a sad irony of all these lawsuits.
Bias has nothing to do with it. Republican-appointed, conservative judges have been throwing out these cases with the same withering commentary.
The problem is not the courts and the judges, the problem is that the lawsuits are threadbare.
It’s not enough to say that there has been irregularities, you have to demonstrate it. This the lawsuits have failed to do.
If your anti-Trump conspiracy necessarily ropes in the legal world, the media world, authorised election watchdogs like the cyber security authority at Federal level, Republican governors, Republican secretaries of state, Republican judges, Republican legislatures….
Then your conspiracy theory is beyond crazy.
“The totals are far too close to be talking like that.”
The margins are too wide in every state, except perhaps for Georgia.
Bush v Gore 2000 hung on a few hundred votes. I doubt there has ever been a post-presidential election litigation with a margin of more than 10 000 votes.
Giuliani inadvertently summed up everything wrong with the Trump legal campaign to overturn the election when he said:
“Networks dont get to decide elections. Courts do.”
Actually, Giuliani is wrong; legislatures get to decide.
No, voters do.
No, in Presidential elections, the electoral college does.
And the EC is picked by the legislature. The legislature trumps all.
No, the electoral colleges elects the president. The voters elect the electors. The lectoral college doesn’t decide, they reflect the will of the people.
This is the whole problem with the Trump legal campaign. The will of the people is unimportant to them.
What does Article 2 of the Constitution say, Barry?
I know how the system works, Stephen. But apparently you don’t.
US states have laws that require the choosing of electors to reflect the will of the people. It would be illegal in practically every state to do otherwise.
It’s incredible to me that you are tacitly trying to argue that the will of the US electorate doesn’t matter in presidential elections.
It’s an indictment on Trump’s influence that his followers tend to think like this.
When you abrogate the will of the poeple you kill democracy.
Democracy is mob rule. We’re a Republic.
“November 29, 2020 at 9:46 AM
And the EC is picked by the legislature. The legislature trumps all.”
No Stephen. No state legislature picks the electors.
They have ALL long ago passed laws giving that choice to their voters.
Just stop spouting BS.
A republic is a representative democracy, you twit.
republic (n)
a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch
James Madison: “[We] define a republic to be, or at least may bestow that name on, a government which derives all its powers directly or indirectly from the great body of the people, and is administered by persons holding their offices during pleasure, for a limited period, or during good behavior. It is essential to such a government that it be derived from the great body of the society, not from an inconsiderable proportion, or a favored class of it; otherwise a handful of tyrannical nobles, exercising their oppressions by a delegation of their powers, might aspire to the rank of republicans, and claim for their government the honorable title of republic. It is sufficient for such a government that the persons administering it be appointed, either directly or indirectly, by the people; and that they hold their appointments by either of the tenures just specified.”
“Democracy is mob rule. Were a Republic.”
OMG, Stephen has an astonishingly child-like intellect.
He even takes the names of the political parties literally, and thus Democratic Party = Pro-Democracy = Bad, and Republican Party = Pro-Republic = Good.
No, not “were a Republic.” You wish “were a Republic.”
Still a Republic.
Correct, I’m not pro-democracy. I’m pro-republic.
I see, you don’t want monarchy but an an oligarchy.
“Correct, I’m not pro-democracy”
democracy (n)
a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives
barry…”Giuliani inadvertently summed up everything wrong with the Trump legal campaign to overturn the election when he said:
Networks dont get to decide elections. Courts do.”
You seem to think the process is finished because some lower courts with biased judges made a ruling. In the Bush affair it went to the federal Supreme Court.
You miss the point.
The voters decide elections.
The judiciary only adjudicates disputes.
This is the problem with the Trump campaign. They believe, as Giuliani actually said, that courts decide elections.
It’s all over – except for the president who is unable to accept defeat and is unable to accept the reality of a pandemic. And for the ones who are blindly following this dishonest person. He is desperately trying to steel the election. If there was a fraud it is far more likely to be caused by a live Putin than a long dead Chavez!
Does anyone recall the triage method Dr. Spencer referenced during the Ebola outbreak? I can’t recall who it was, maybe the Greeks, but they had the recovered care for the sick. With some hospitals buckling from covid cases this seems like the time to employ the recovered in their care.
The evidence is excellent that people who contracted Ebola remain immune for years afterwards.
Barry, you must be thrilled with Biden picking John Kerry as his climate czar. Aren’t Czars in Russia? I think you leftists must love those Marxist connections.
All I know, Mr Anderson, is that you are here misrepresenting the history.
Here is the Marxist connection:
https://www.npr.org/2020/11/25/823893821/trump-pardons-michael-flynn-who-pleaded-guilty-to-lying-about-russia-contact
J.-P. D.
Czars and marxists? They were bloody enemies! Your understanding of history is blatantly lacking.
Stephen took it right off the rails when he stupidly replaced the political meaning of czar with the imperial meaning. No need to join him there.
The leftists think they are royalty.
Hahahaha. I thought leftists were socialists? Or are they not in bed with capitalists, like the Clintons? No, no, appartently today leftists believe they are royalty.
One thing is sure. You are an idiot.
Socialist elites think they are royalty. The rules they set for others don’t apply to themselves.
You mean they appoint family members to top positions?
” Pennsylvania Supreme Court dismisses lawsuit against mail ballots with prejudice in another defeat for Trump ”
Wash Post
J.-P. D.
Courts are based on evidence and facts, just like science.
Two worlds colliding.
I have the solution to the whole problem.
The Republicans regard the election as invalid.
Declare it void and go to the next option.
Appoint the majority leader of the House of Representatives.
All hail President Pelosi.
We have to follow the Constitution.
With or without the amendments?
The key legal elements here are the 11th amendment and the Presidential Succession Act 1947.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Succession_Act
These specify that if the President is not available the VP steps up.
If neither President or Vice-President are available the next in line is the Majority Leader of the House of Representatives.
It’s not well drafted. Their are legally conceivable situations in which Donald Trump, Joe Biden and Nancy Pelosi could simultaneously arrive at the Inaugeration with valid legal arguments that they should be sworn in.
Fortunately it probably won’t go that far.
I would say the key legal element is Article 2. You know, that article that came after the first.
What about Article 2? You know, that one that came after Article 1.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/52/20511
I think we need to go back to paper ballots with hanging and dimpled chads. Those are easier to deal with than trying to uncover software “irregularities.”
A Dominion executive stated, “Trump is not going to be elected. I made effing sure of that.”
I’m sure that’s a well-verified quote there.
Rob Mitchell
” A Dominion executive stated, ‘Trump is not going to be elected. I made effing sure of that.’ ”
Is that a result of your inventiveness?
Or do you have a source? Then… post it!
J.-P. D.
binny…”Is that a result of your inventiveness?
Or do you have a source? Then post it!”
If you were not so vituperous you’d have looked it up yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ_ks_sNITg
I now await your ‘shoot the messenger’ vituperosity.
Robertson
Only contrarian idiots believe in what OAN produces.
That you belong to them doesn’t wonder me at all.
J.-P. D.
I had never heard of One America News Network until this video. So I looked it up.
First of all, I wanted to see exactly how ONA promotes itself.
https://www.oann.com/about/
Well it’s very clear what ‘lens’ they wish to view America through.
So, are they an objective news organization with respect to Trump?
Here’s a tweet ONA put out:
“President Trump recently gave a speech, thanking his supporters in the media. Not a single mention of One America News — one of his GREATEST supporters”
So this ‘news’ organization is one of Trump’s “GREATEST supporters?”
Gentle reader, how does that comment rate on your neutrality scale?
https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-year-of-batshit-crazy-at-one-america-news-trumps-new-favorite-cable-news-channel
OAN is nuts.
They gleefully spread both Trump and Russian propaganda.
They said out loud that they are striving to be the new Propaganda Arm of DT.
“One American News Network, a right-wing cable channel, announced Thursday it will file an amicus brief in favor of the Trump administration in CNNs lawsuit over revoked White House press credentials for its reporter Jim Acosta. ‘Acostas actions are stopping our people from getting their questions answered, so that we can give our audience the REAL NEWS DIRECT FROM OUR PRESIDENT,’ the networks CEO said in a statement”
Then Trump can get his news there, feedback loop restored.
This well-verified quote is a paraphrase overheard by someone who infiltrated a conference call in September.
I do hope it gets submitted to a court. Not sure why it has taken so long.
McStupid…”Gordon Robertson aka Mr Creosote, you are a Canadian so what do you care? ”
I’m actually Scottish, based on my DNA. I am only legally Canadian.
I care because whoever is running the US affects us here in Canada. I am concerned about the inability of the hill billy Democrats to deal with covid and global warming issues. The Democrats are a load of wannabee eco-weenies who have no idea what they are talking about let alone the possible catastrophic effects of their proposed actions.
“Gordon Robertson says:
November 2, 2020 at 8:54 PM
steve…”the climate crisis or what ever climate scientists are calling it today is a looming existential catastrophe. I call it bullshit”.
Same with covid theory and the tests. Medical science and alarmist climate science have a lot in common.”
‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘ ‘
You can’t seem to keep your stories straight!
This was imho inevitable:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jemimamcevoy/2020/11/29/trump-claims-fbi-and-justice-department-may-have-helped-rig-election/?sh=49bced755c01
J.-P. D.
binny…both the FBI and the DOJ co-operated with the Obama admin trying to discredit Trump re Russian collusion. Why is it so strange to think they have failed to investigate his allegations of fraud?
Robertson
Stop your stupid, contrarian bullshit.
You are talking incompetent nonsense all the time about anything, be it climate, the election, the Moon, Einstein etc etc.
Why don’t you simply shut up, Robertson?
J.-P. D.
Might as well tote up the list:
The mainstream media
Dominion voting machine executives
Smartmatic voting software executives
City Democrats
Democrat governors
Democrat appointed judges
Democrat secrataries of state
Republican appointed judges
Republican governors
Republican secretaries of state
The Election Infrastructure Government Coordinating Council
Cybersecurity and Infrastructure Security Agency
U.S. Election Assistance Commission Chair
National Association of Secretaries of State President
National Association of State Election Directors President
The FBI
The Department of Justice
are all in on the conpiracy to rob Trump of the election.
Some on that list conspired, but some didn’t but want to see Trump lose badly, so they’re willingly obstructing, obfuscating, piling on, and spouting propaganda when they don’t really have the first clue what happened, like you. They know something nefarious probably did happen but don’t care. They just want to see Trump out.
sorry, wanted to see Trump lose, badly
Barry, why are you such a leftist? Where is this utopia? Where has it ever been?
Joe Biden will never get a chance to implement his utopian ideology. His ideas will wreck the economy and the country before implementation.
You’ve heard nothing about my political views. You have no idea.
I have admired and criticised politicians across the political spectrum. John McCain was an outstanding human being and a creditable conservative representative. My top 2 US presidents would be Abraham Lincoln and Dwight D Eisenhower, both Republicans (though the Republican party of those times was quite different to today). I think Trump is utterly unfit for the office of the president. That’s not because I’m a ‘leftist.’ That’s entirely based on his actions.
I spend the majority of time on these forums debunking disinformation. There has been mountains of that from the Trump campaign. They have done significant damage to US democracy and public discourse over the last 3 weeks.
I have enjoyed the twitterer in chief’s antics over the last 4 years. It’s been like an absurd sit-com, or an extended episode of Yes, Minister, but the American version. I have attended it all with bemusement.
But the mass delusion he has led his followers into is the most damaging thing he has done. He has divided the country with lies. It’s not quite so funny anymore, but the sheer brazen BS of it all is still quite stunning, and the willingness for his followers to mindlessly accept it is fascinating. How do they see past his low character, flim-flam man antics, and obvious narcissism? It must be his awesome policy initiatives…
barry, I like that, “twitterer-in-chief”! I’ve been guilty of enjoying that also, especially as it keeps the Trump Degangement Syndrome (TDS) going.
I can’t imagine the number of Leftists adversely affected. Pelosi probably aged 8 years in the 4 years.
And, it will get worse when he leaves office. He’s not the type to retire quietly. Even when he plays golf, he has a way of keeping Leftists agitated and riled.
John McCain? Conservative? Those words don’t belong in the same sentence. John McCain was a self-serving egotist. I’m glad he never became President.
McCain fought for his country, was captured, trotured, and then refused repatriation from his captors because he wouldn’t leave his buddies behind.
What do you now about egotism, I wonder?
Yeah, Stephen has this particular conspiracy all worked out. Who did what when, where, and why. He just cannot quite put it into coherent sentences.
There’s likely going to be shortages of popcorn before this is over.
https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2020/11/the_smartest_man_in_the_room_has_joined_sidney_powells_team.html
There are two things we know for certain. 1) The Trump Campaign has a lot of money to spend. 2) There a lot of very talented people who are willing to take the campaign’s money to do the dirty work of casting doubt on the outcome.
Looks to me like the soon-to-come vaccines will have a huge impact – much bigger than what the medical community is letting on.
Heres the key stat:
[The population age 65 and over has increased from 37.2 million in 2006 to 49.2 million in 2016……]
The number of deaths will fall like a rock after that age group gets a vaccine.
And not a long wait considering 40 million doses are expected to be available by the end of December.
About 75% of Covid deaths are from the 65 and older age group. If they can get vaccinated by the end of January?
Huge difference.
The right in the US has been drifting towards authoritarianism for a while now, and the Trump era has accelerated that drift.
What was once a hypothetical uni debate has morphed into an actual position among US conservatives on the righter half of their own political spectrum: that the US is not a democracy (“It’s a Republic!”)
I don’t think that these voicesa are championing republicanism so much as dimishing democracy. But this refrain is usually trotted out to reject a popular vote.
In the last few weeks we’ve seen conservatives actually push the idea that (Republican majority) state legislatures should break their own laws and assign electors to the electoral college on their own cognizance rather than by the will of the people.
Conservatives even at the very top of the political establishment are casting their political opponents as the enemy instead of just opponents. Democrats are described as socialists, or marxists (but sometimes in bed with Wall Street – go figure), or otherwise demonised en masse – a narrative that they are a mortal threat to the United States. Extremist nonsense, and yet eagerly embraced by many conservatives.
Conservatives in the US are now saying that courts decide elections, as if litigation trumps the electorate. The will of the people is no longer of any import.
All these are warning signs of a slide into facism.
I would not be at all surprised if that is what happens should another Trump-like, but politically craftier demagogue becomes president down the road.
And all of your opinionated characterization of the Right is countered by the Left attempting to do away with the Electoral College.
Politics is the continual fight for power. That’s why the Constitution is so important. And why uninformed voters are so dangerous.
“Politics is the continual fight for power. Thats why the Constitution is so important.”
Yes. Then why do you guys so easily abandon it when policies you favor are being enacted?
“And why uninformed voters are so dangerous.”
Yes. Then why are you guys so fond of sources that feed your biases, misinform you, and don’t bother with journalistic standards?
Troll Nate tries the same “false accusation” technique with politics, like he tries in science.
That’s hilarious, and you have it backasswards. Which governors have acted like tyrants the last year? Which side is constantly yelping about censoring the other side? Which side censors the other side? Which side has discussed creating “lists” of Trump supporters? Which side has used Federal agencies against the other side. Which side unlawfully used FISA to spy on the other side. You either have your head in the sand or up Nate’s ass.
As Raffensperger (the republican secretary of state in Georgia) says : “the truth matters” and “There are those who are exploiting the emotions of many Trump supporters with fantastic claims, half-truths, misinformation, and frankly, they are misleading the President as well, apparently.”
Mr. Anderson – you are apparently a naive victim of these lies and misinformation.
The wikipedia entry on this organization makes for great reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_America_News_Network
Herring Networks, I like it.
Bet Robert’s nickname is Red.
THE REALITIES
TRUMP LOST. ZERO CHANCE OF WINNING!
COVD HAS BEEN STILL IS VERY BAD.
THE VERDICT IS STILL OUT ON THE CLIMATE.SO FAR NO SIGN OF GLOBAL COOLING. I GO BY DATA UNLIKE CONSERVATIVES WHO EHPAHSIZE WISHFUL THINKING, AND DENIAL.
I disagree with all the conservative fools on the first two items.
This does make it hard for me to side with them on the climate given how idiotic they have been on the first two items.
BIDEN will be fine. He is going to be center not left and you can see that already.
At Biden’s age his agenda is to unite the country not about political gains. He is needed in these times ,glad he won.
Trump is a liar and a fool. He has proven it with first the pandemic and now the election results.
You did support him at first, didn’t you?
I’m glad your mind is open to facts.
At one time.
Some of the conservative climate people think they are some kind of experts on the virus and the election.
My advise stick to your profession.
As someone who lectures others about sticking to your profession, you should know that the response to the virus always was and remains to be a compromise between saving lives and maintaining the economy. It is easy to do just one, and very difficult to do both. After they intentionally released the virus to the world by maintaining international travel in and out of Wuhabn long after they knew about human to human transmission and closed domestic travel, the Chinese Communists proved that the virus can be stopped if there is zero regard for personal freedom and civil rights.
Salvatore
101 % agreed.
Buona notte
J.-P. D. in Germoney
What is your point?
A very interesting confirmation of Biden’s election win, even more than Arizona and Wisconsin having certified it:
Kay Bailey Hutchison, Trump’s ambassador to NATO, says Biden is president-elect
Trump is the worst loser of all times, and… it shows.
J.-P. D.
TRUMP IS A MORON.
Picked up somewhere on Twitter:
” Fred Eshelman, owner of a venture capital firm, sued True the Vote Inc. today. He claims it duped him into giving it $2.5 million for its Validate the Vote 2020 campaign to file lawsuits to uncover fraud in the Nov. elections on behalf of President Trump. ”
https://truethevote.org/
Some people are so incredibly stupid…
J.-P. D.
I know you’d like to see those pesky Amendments removed, but our founders presciently understood that there would be people like you.
To Barry
On the contrary, I asked if you’d like to include the amendments when you continually referred to Article II of the constitution, as there have been 3 amendments that bear on that article.
You appear to have a peculiarly ‘originalist’ reading on the constitution (supposing you are doing more than just siphoning conservative tropes you’ve read), and I wondered if you had considered the impact of the amendments on Article II in your reckoning.
No amendments change the state legislatures’ authority to pick the electors in any way they see fit.
“No amendments”
I thought so.
But Jesus, you are stupid.
The constitution leaves it to the states to determine the manner of their selcting electors.
And all the states that matter in this dicussion have their own constitutions and laws that proscribe that a plurality of the electorate say who elects the president.
That’s why you keep talking about the federal constitution and not state electoral laws. Because you want to ignore state law so Trump can get elected.
It’s wondferfully ironic. Conservatives are all about the states being fierceley independent of the fed, and in any other situation would defend state law wherever it trumps federal law.
But not for Trumpites, who are not true Republican conservatives, but simply cultists worshipping The Don.
Still like to know where Stephen gets these strange ideas. Do you have a legitimate source?
The SCOTUS recently ruled specifically on this issue. They ruled that state legislators have given the choice of electors to the people, IOW the voters. Electors MUST vote according to the choice of the people of the state.
The Opinion states: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/19-465_i425.pdf
“(b) ‘Long settled and established practice’ may have ‘great weight in a proper interpretation of constitutional provisions.’ …
“Courts and commentators throughout that century recognized the
presidential electors as merely acting on other people’s preferences. And state election laws evolved to reinforce that development, ensuring that a State’s electors would vote the same way as its citizens. Washington’s law is only another in the same vein. It reflects a longstanding tradition in which electors are not free agents; they are to vote for the candidate whom the State’s voters have chosen.”
Trump is a poor loser.
Leftist myrmidon.
Did not want to say moron poor loser is what I meant.
Our presumptive Commander in Chief fractures foot while playing with his dog…..sigh!
I like Biden, and we need to give him a chance.
Barry, Nate, Salvatore, Bindidon all hate this country and would love to see its destruction. The greatest country that has ever been and ever will be. Why should anyone listen to you?
Stephen Paul Anderson
Sorry your thinking is flawed. Trump is destroying this country as well as anyone who follows this herd. He is a spreader of false misleading information. A most terrible curse on this land! There is no home of Free as long as lies and deception are tolerated and encouraged! Lies should be attacked regardless of Party affiliation. Loyalty to a Party to accept falsehood is what will destroy the Nation. Now we have a Nation where any garbage is peddled and accepted! No more rigor, evidence does not matter, maligned character without supporting evidence, no problem in the land of lies.
I used to think the media gave Trump a bad rap. After Covid hit and his terrible lies and destruction of truth made me really dislike this President! What a horrible leader he is! And now he continues to show poor leadership in all fashion. Lying, making up false accusations and his ignorant followers accept his trash like it was the greatest truth.
This blog is polluted by minds that operate similar to Trump. They make up lies and distortions of physics and will peddle these lies endlessly running threads in the thousands.
It is sad how Trump is supported. I still do not understand the blind following of someone who so easily and blatantly lies all the time.
Without Truth and Honesty a strong Nation is not possible, nor does Science work. Trump declared open War on Truth, integrity and honesty and he works to destroy any who would dare publicly discredit his deceit.
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/03/former-defense-secretary-mattis-breaks-silence-and-tears-into-trump-he-tries-to-divide-us.html
You can state Biden is poor material for a President and that may be correct but blind devotion to a dishonest vindictive personality is not making this Nation Great!
Stephen, you are incredibly deluded.
I want America to succeed, as a shining beacon of democracy, progressiveness and compassion to the rest of the world.
But you and your ilk want America not to be a democracy but a republic, not to be progressive but conservative, not to be compassionate but self-interested.
And if America becomes what you want it to be, then I will mourn the loss of this beacon that shone a light of hope through the 20th century and look elsewhere for inspiration. I totally get that you could care less what people in the rest of the world think.
Norman and barry, you both have a very poor history when it comes to accepting reality.
Why should anyone listen to you?
ClintR
Again you demonstrate you are not smart and possess little intelligence. Your comment has no analysis of posts. Just a phrase you like to repeat (of course with zero evidence, evidence is a bad word to you, in your thousands of posts here you provide none!) that anyone who does not agree with your made up version of reality then that would mean they don’t accept reality because you are the one who has determined what reality is.
You are kind of dumb aren’t you. The bigger question is does anyone listen to you?
Norman, the issue here is your avoidance of reality. Don’t try to run down different trails to escape your history. Don’t try to deny your history of avoiding reality.
As a reminder, you believe that two ice cubes are hotter than one ice cube. That’s not reality, but you cling to it.
Well, here we have Raffensperger, the republican secretary of state in Georgia, describing what he believes is the reality: “There are those who are exploiting the emotions of many Trump supporters with fantastic claims, half-truths, misinformation, and frankly, they are misleading the President as well, apparently.”
Do you agree with him?
ClintR
Again you demonstrate you are not a smart person nor intelligent. Your posts are meaningless drivel.
No I did not state two ice cubes are hotter than one. Your own stupid thoughts are what create your valueless posts, by the thousands.
You deny the reality that you make up stupid physics, you tell a poster with a PhD in physics that they don’t understand physics. You hate evidence and just make up stupid posts to get some reactions.
Nothing will change your behavior. You are too dumb to know how stupid most your posts seem to intelligent people.
“Barry, Nate, Salvatore, Bindidon all hate this country and would love to see its destruction.”
A statement of a very insecure, ignorant person.
‘Anyone who disagrees with me must HATE AMERICA and want to DESTROY IT.
There is simply no other explanation that can satisfy my ego.’
This is also standard QANON type logic. People who disagree with us MUST BE EVIL. In fact they are homicidal pedophiles.
Only an extremely insecure and gullible person would buy into this crap.
OK, then tell us why you love this country and why it is the greatest country there is?
You understand that a patriot can love their country and still be aghast at the direction it has taken, right?
Right.
One reason its great is that we’re an immigrant stew.
Of the 19 bell-weather counties that have correctly picked the President in the last 10 election cycles, Trump won 18 of those counties.
Valencia County, NM, which has correctly picked the President since 1952, Trump won by 10 points.
In Westmorland County, Virginia, which has failed to be accurate only twice since 1928, Trump won by 16 points.
Ottawa County, OH, has correctly picked the President since 1964; Trump won by 23 points.
The Republicans picked up at least 10 seats in the House.
They didn’t lose one state legislature and actually picked up one.
But we somehow have to believe that Biden was such a great candidate that he overcame all those odds.
Gonna let you in on something that has probably escaped you. A huge number of people in the US are appalled by Trump, and were incensed enough from his presidency over the last four years to vote him out. And these folk tend to come from urban and suburban areas.
Of the bellweather counties, how many are urban, Stephen? I’m assuming you live there, so I assume you will be able to answer that like a straight shooter.
barry, I’ll let you in on something that has probably escaped you. The US is almost exactly divided over many issues. A large number of people suffer from “Trump Derangement Syndrome”, while a large number of people suffer from Trump adoration.
You are in the TDS cult, so I assume you will be able to admit that like a straight shooter.
How do you explain that those counties voted for Clinton and Obama?
14 of these ‘bellweather counties’ voted for Hillary Clinton in 2016.
I’m gonna guess you don’t see this as suspicious, though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_election_bellwether_counties_in_the_United_States
That’s a lie. The fact is those 19 counties correctly voted for the winner in the last 10 election cycles. Stop spreading your propaganda.
You will do or say anything and distort any point to advance your agenda.
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2020-55062413
Stephen, it’s no lie. In fact, the article I linked corroborates what both of us have said. Trump got 19 bellweathers in 2020. Hillary got 14 in 2016.
You can easily check the 2016 results if you think it’s a lie. The counties are all listed.
My point is, it happened to Hillary, too. So do you think they were both robbed of the presidency? I doubt it.
Ahhh that tactic.
‘My data in my counties is fine, pay attention to it. Your data from your counties is fraudulent.’
The data I showed you is vote from all counties across Michigan and Pa and Wisconsin that showed slight gains for Biden over 2016. These are not your ‘suspect’ counties.
They show exactly why Biden won these states.
It seems you cannot abide facts contradictory to your belief. So it must be dismissed.
Stephen,
Your candidate lost the popular vote by 7 Million and 51-47%. He lost the Battleground states, and the Electoral College. These are the only things that matter.
But you want us to pay attention to a tiny subset of those votes that had no impact on the election, like how Dixville Notch, NH voted at midnight.
These are factoids, curiosities. But ones that JUST DOESNT MATTER.
“Of the 19 bell-weather counties that have correctly picked the President in the last 10 election cycles, Trump won 18 of those counties.”
Stephen, we’ve shown you lots of data that you’ve completely ignored that shows that Biden won by gaining in many counties, particularly suburban ones.
IDK why you would expect anyone to pay attention to your red-herring ‘data’
Fraudulent data doesn’t count.
The above you post meant for here.
Governor DeSantis proposes bill legalizing shooting rioters and looters.
Yes, I don’t think there is enough citizen on citizen shooting in the US.
If they could repeal all the laws against people shooting each other, then citizens of the US could do justice on their own terms. Small government and all that. All that time and money wasted in the courts. Could probably do away with law enforcement altogether and reduce taxes at the same time. Win/win.
And all the money not wasted in courts could be used to buy more ammo.
Of course all fatal shootings will be listed as Covid-19 deaths, so gun deaths will then drop.
Win/win/win/win.
Lovely
“It also allows for death to be the punishment for a property crime and that is cruel and unusual punishment. We cannot live in a lawless society where taking a life is done so casually and recklessly.’ says Denise Georges, a former Miami-Dade County prosecutor
Former Miami-Dade prosecutor Aubrey Webb warned that the draft was far too vague and could lead to justifiable deaths after minor infractions.
It dangerously gives armed private citizens power to kill as they subjectively determine what constitutes ‘criminal mischief’ that interferes with a business,
Someone graffiti-ing ‘Black Lives Matter’ on a wall? Urinating behind a dumpster? Blocking an entrance?
‘The Boston Tea Party members would have been lawfully shot under Floridas law by the British East India Tea Company,’ he warned “
OAN is fact based news. Yes, they are conservative. That is a good thing. CNN is political propaganda news. Look how they pushed RUSSIA RUSSIA RUSSIA for 3+ years.
What is the criteria by which you judge ‘fact based news,’ exactly?
Do you have any?
barry, if it’s something you don’t like, it’s likely “fact”.
(You know how you hate reality.)
OAN is the only network showing the election fraud hearings. Today, a truck driver testified that he delivered a crate of filled out ballots from New York to Pennsylvania. He thought that was a bit odd and blew the whistle on it. It is being investigated.
Rob, is ONA reporting on the hearing as if they are allegations, or as if they are proven facts?
Most news outlets recognize that these are not newsworthy events.
They are not real legislative hearings, which are in the legislature, bipartisan, and witnesses are sworn in, cross examined, and witnesses from both sides are heard.
None of that here. IOW a propaganda charade masqureading as a hearing.
Yes, I know it’s not a legislative hearing. That makes my question more pertinient. If OAN are giving automatic credence to these allegations that are being aired in such a low-bar forum, then that’s even worse.
I suspect that’s exactly what OAN are doing, but let’s see what Rob says.
I watched a bit. An anchor was talking about election fraud conspiracy theories as if they were already proven facts.
Not news. Propaganda.
I hope we can all agree that the main point of the news media has been to hold the government and other organizations accountable for their statements and actions that impact the public.
They should not simply be a mouthpiece/megaphone for the government, as it is for eg North Korea. The News there is what the Dear Leader says it is.
But that is exactly what OAN aspires to do:
“One American News Network, a right-wing cable channel, announced Thursday it will file an amicus brief in favor of the Trump administration in CNNs lawsuit over revoked White House press credentials for its reporter Jim Acosta. ‘Acostas actions are stopping our people from getting their questions answered, so that we can give our audience the REAL NEWS DIRECT FROM OUR PRESIDENT,’ the networks CEO said in a statement”
My observations are that they succeed in doing just that.
Well that’s absolutely blatant, isn’t it? Completely writes off OAN as a neutral participant.
“REAL NEWS DIRECT FROM OUR PRESIDENT”
That could be the byline for a state run Chinese newspaper.
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/416954-conservative-outlet-one-america-news-files-brief-in-support-of-white-house-in
TRUMP AND CONSERVATIVE MEDIA- are cry babies.
salvatore…”TRUMP AND CONSERVATIVE MEDIA- are cry babies.”
They have something to cry about, Salvatore. I am not a conservative, my leanings are to the left side of the spectrum. However, in this case, the Conservatives are standing up for important matters like being skeptical about anthropogenic warming theory and the covid nonsense. The COnservatives are the ones defending our democratic rights, not the so-called Liberals.
On the other hand. the so-called Liberals are supporting anthropogenic warming in a deluded manner. They are talking about imposing mandatory mask and vaccine policies, while supporting the defunding of police and justifying rioting and terrorism.
My dad warned me about this. He was a left winger in that he supported the Labour movement in the UK. However, when they got silly, he was not above voting for a Tory candidate. I don’t support Trump’s economic policies and what that means for the poor, but I thing the poor will be far worse of with the Draconian policies of the Democrats.
With regard to the election, I was alarmed seeing Biden overcome a 500,000 vote deficit in Pennsylvania based on mail-in votes. It immediately struck me that something was amiss. No we are beginning to hear evidence of vote tampering from eye-witnesses.
I think the US Presidential election should be put on hold till a full investigation is completed. Factions in the State judiciary are not even willing to listen, another indication of partisan action.
For those who live in a news bubble, DT loyalist AG Bill Barr says:
“To date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have affected a different outcome in the election,” Barr told the AP.
Nate
Yes I heard this as well. It won’t stop Trump. He has a wonderful money making machine by bilking his ignorant followers.
https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/01/politics/president-donald-trump-raises-more-than-170-million-since-election-day/index.html
His blind followers are middle-income and they are forking over their money to help him (people like ClintR who blindly believe in things but never have evidence or support of any of it ever) even though he is a supposed billionaire that should be able to provide the income to investigate election fraud.
Why would he not continue. He puts out a couple tweets, Fraud here fraud there…send me money to fight the evil Deep State. Great money making scheme for virtually no work at all on his part.
Who can understand the thought process of a Trump supporter?
True. Keep em angry as long as possible.
Norman, or Nomran, you’re ignorant again.
My stock account increased by 6 figures under Trump. Yet, I never contributed 1 cent to his campaign.
Keep spewing your nonsense. Idiots like you are entertaining.
The leftist propagandists are hard at it today applying their trade.
Bill Barr is a leftist, true.
No, he heads a department where 97-98% of the workers voted or contributed money to Biden. Government lawyers are the epitome of the deep state.
Thank the lord there are patriots in the Justice Dept who still believe justice should be apolitical. They do their job and find the facts and prosecute people, and none of that depends on who is President.
And Stephen, Im sure you will thank them to continue with that approach after Jan 20.
You mean like they did with General Flynn? Or the FISA court? Just fact finding.
Flynn did it to himself.
It’s amazing how many Republicans have become leftists after the election.
Leftists are in majority on the right side of the middle.
Idiots are in the majority here.
In your mind.
‘Leftists to the left of us, leftists to the right. Here we are stuck in the middle with …Trump?’
nate…”To date, we have not seen fraud on a scale that could have affected a different outcome in the election, Barr told the AP.”
Is that what’s at stake here? They found some fraud, but not enough to overturn the election? Others, who stand for democracy would regard some fraud as indicating a need to take a closer look to see how deep it goes.
Barr is a gutless sob.
The rats are leaving the sinking ship.
The Nazis called the Jews rats. Is that a popular pejorative with you leftists.
Stephen,
Nazi’s beat up Leftists in the streets.
Their message was militarism, nationalism, anti-Internationalism, anti-deviant, anti-immigrant. They banned leftist trade unions. Sided with big corporations.
All these are things the Right espouses.
Just as Democratic and Republican are simply the leftover party names, they are no longer meaningful descriptions of the parties.
The National Socialist Workers Party, was simply a left-over name from the original party intended to appeal to workers, that was not an accurate descriptor of the party that later came to power.
In every election with a large population – in this case 150 million people – there are going to be some people who don’t do it correctly, and some who do it fraudulently.
That, as well as tallies not being absolutely perfect, is completely expected. All large societies have their crazies.
What a suit must demonstrate is systemic fraud that could change the poutcome of the election, not just a handful of the nutty or agenda-driven people who falsified a few votes.
Ill-done ballots, whether intentional or mistaken, are already rejected. That is not the issue. The issue is whether there has been deliberate, large scale fraud or irregularity (as in tens of thousands of votes in one state). So far, zero reliable evidence has been presented.
No, the Trump legal effort is not credible if what they are doing is trying to unearth a handful of nutty people who did it wrong. That is a waste of time and money.
The legal fiasco continues.
A case to turn around the Wisconsin result, by Sidney Powell, she who blames Chavez and China for stealing the election, demanded 48 hours of election footage from…. (drumroll)….
A voting centre in Detroit Michigan.
One of the plaintiffs they named tweeted as proceedings started that they hadn’t given their permission to be on the suit.
And because they screwed up with missing filings and other information, like the addresses of defendants, they failed to get a requirement for defendants to respond before the electoral college votes.
https://tinyurl.com/y55dfuwk
This is great stuff.
Barry and Nate, the Ministers of Propaganda.
Martial law!!!! Crazy or desparate?
Stephen, this stuff is on the record. Wishing it were otherwise really isn’t going to work. It’s just going to pull you further and further away from reality.
Here are all the court documents:
https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/18702085/feehan-v-wisconsin-elections-commission/
Here is the original complaint:
https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wied.92717/gov.uscourts.wied.92717.1.0_1.pdf
On page 50 this demand:
11. Immediate production of 48 hours of security camera recording of all rooms used in the voting process at the TCF Center for November 3, 2020 and November 4, 2020.
The TFC is in Detroit, Michigan, not Wisconsin.
Also in that complaint is argument that Dominion uses Smartimatic software in their machines, which was suppodsedly corrupted by Chavez and infiltrated by China. Problem is, both companies have stated that they do not work together nor use each others software or hardware.
At the top of that complaint is the name Derrick van Orden listed as one of 2 plaintiffs. This is the person that tweeted he did not give his permission to be listed on the complaint.
https://www.tcfcenterdetroit.com/
And here is the judge’s order that lays out the missteps taken by the plaintiffs resulting in their failure to get an expedited case.
https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.wied.92717/gov.uscourts.wied.92717.7.0_3.pdf
That’s from the court filings. It’s not propaganda. It’s what happened.
One of those links should have been to the tweet.
https://tinyurl.com/y2gopvz4
“Ministers of Propaganda.”
Sure. Along with other leftists like Bill Barr.
And Rush Limbaugh too: talking about Rudy and his team.
“You call a gigantic press conference like that one that lasts an hour and you announce massive bombshells, then you better have some bombshells. There better be something at that press conference other than what we got”, Limbaugh said. “They promised blockbuster stuff, and then nothing happened. And thats just, thats not well, its not good.
If youre gonna do a press conference like that with the promise of blockbusters, then there has to be something more than what that press conference delivered.”
[quote]The gradual decline of a society is often a self-induced process of trying to meet ever-expanding appetites, rather than a physical inability to produce past levels of food and fuel, or to maintain adequate defense.[/quote]….VD Hanson
Ok, Stephen.
So this justifies de-ligitimizing elections?
The leftists, not Trump, delegitimized it.
Cmon Stephen, Trump has spent the last 3 weeks screaming fraud. He wants people to follow him down a deep rabbit hole of and rigged elections and conspiracy by the Left and even by some of his strong Rep supporters.
But he is not able to prove a bit of it in court…
Now all the key states are certified or nearly so.
He lost. He actually was the loser. But he just cannot deal with being called a loser.
And as a result he will drag his followers along for this fantasy, until they completely lose faith in the electoral process, in democracy, in the country. And he doesnt care.
Its truly a pathetic spectacle.
And its backfiring. In Georgia, Rs may not go out and vote because they are convinced the system is rigged. If so, they will lose.
Example of “gradual decline of a society”:
“This person confirmed that Trump told those present that QAnon consists of people who “basically believe in good government,” which led to silence in the room. White House chief of staff Mark Meadows then said he had not heard the group described as such.”
Idiotic leftists fixate on what Trump says and not what he does. Words are much more important to a leftist than are deeds. Trump is probably the most consequential President in our lifetime. Conservatives recognize this. He is a gift from God.
Well, he does not seem to be doing anything apart from trying to reverse his 7+ mill. election loss and worrying about pardons! Any idea which crimes his children have done that requires pardoning?
Fraudulent numbers don’t count. This is the USA. You must be talking about the banana republic you’re from.
Yes, it is unbelievable that this is USA! Not able to conduct fair and free elections, as you insinuate! Even in states where republicans are in charge they have failed! Sounds like a banana republic to me – if you are correct. Or, alternatively, USA have been unlucky and put a Lukasjenko-type in a powerful position who clings to power and cannot accept defeat. Is USA becoming a new Belarus?
Fortunately, for a politician to be successful in my country he has to prove he is a grown-up.
‘Fanatics’ no. But we are all part of a ‘cult’
“Your cult always brings out the best in your type.”
Fantasy, Fraudulent, no.
But so often we are ‘perverting science’ and not accepting ‘reality’.
“Poor history when it comes to accepting reality.
You know how you hate reality.”
You’re living in a fantasy, Stephen. republicans are saying the results aren’t fraudulent., It’s only the screaming Truymnp-train that says otherwisae, and whenever they get to court they fail to provide reliable evidence of it.
It’s a mantra, mate, not a fact. Trump has been pushing it since BEFORE the election. Months before. And now his fans are trying to prove his prior assertions and failing dismally.
Reasonable people give up an opinion when the evidence weighs too heavily against it. Fanatics create ever more ludicrous theories so they don’t have to face the facts.
Republican judges are throwing these cases out. Republican-appointed judghes are throwing these cases out. It’s not a conspiracy. It’s just a lack of evidence. Deal with it.
barry, you’re going to have to be cautious when you use words like “fantasy”, “fraudulent”, “mantra”, “fanatics”, and such. Trying to promote standards for reality could backfire on you. Someone might try to hold you to such standards when you try to promote your cult beliefs.
We know what these terms mean when Barry uses them. And he uses them rarely, and when it seems appropriate.
Whereas you, Clint, use them all the time.
Its like you cry wolf constantly. We have learned to ignore them when you use them.
See how that works?
Well troll Nate, if I “use them all the time”, it shouldn’t be hard for you to show even one instance where I have used the four words.
Or, did you get caught lying again?
Or quite similar pejorative words. Same thing.
http://www.drroyspencer.com/2020/11/benfords-law-part-2-inflated-vote-totals-or-just-the-nature-of-precinct-sizes/#comment-564584
Yup, troll Nate got caught again.
How many of you have seen the videotapes from the Georgia State Farm polling place? The Democrats cheated folks, plain and simple.
Sure, always on youtube, or in unsworn testimony, but never in court.
I wonder why is that?
Maybe because in court, people are sworn in, can perjure themselves, be cross examined. Their testimony can be compared with what other witnesses saw, what video shows, what records show.
They don’t have to win in court. He already won with the American people.
“Trump is probably the most consequential President in our lifetime. Conservatives recognize this. He is a gift from God.”
Exactly the problem. You guys think he has no flaws, or that they don’t matter. And you think what he says is true. Everything is ‘The Best Ever!’
Good example, he said we had the best economy ever. When you look at the facts you see that is obviously FALSE.
He said we had the fastest GDP growth ever last quarter! We did, but just after we had the fastest drop in GDP ever.
The recovery is unfortunately slower than the drop.
He is like the ‘Dear Leader’ who should be worshiped.
This is how cults of personality work.
No, Moses had flaws. But, Moses was a gift from God. If you’re human, you have flaws. Unlike the left, we ignore the flaws and focus on his greatness.
Mr. Anderson writes:
“Unlike the left, we ignore the flaws and focus on his greatness.”
John Kelly probably knows Trump far better than you and in his career he must have met very many different people to compare him with. And Kelly says:
“The depths of his [Trump] dishonesty is just astounding to me. The dishonesty, the transactional nature of every relationship, though it’s more pathetic than anything else. He is the most flawed person I have ever met in my life.”
What greatness do you see?
The greatest President of my life, and that includes Reagan. No one could have withstood the assault he has taken. He has stood in the vanguard between the left and us. The bravest man I’ve ever seen.
Why do you hate the ‘left’ so much Stephen?
Because there is no explanation for dismising the deep flaws in Trump, noted by Kelly and other respected people who are basically aligned politically with you.
“Unlike the left, we ignore the flaws”
Yes Stephen.
Con artists always have that effect on people.
And thats how we get cults, and Manson, and Jim Jones, and drinking the Kool-Aid.
In this instance, DT has raised over $200 million, telling people that ‘The Steal’ can be stopped. Most of that $ is not used for that effort, but goes into a slush fund for DT whatever use.
He knows by now there is no chance to stop it, but the $$$ just keeps coming. So why stop now? Who cares about its effect on democracy.
And there are plenty of people out there falling for it.
Are you one?
There are many con artists on the left. The DNC, Pelosi, Obama, Clinton, Biden, Schumer, the media, and all their willing sycophants like you.
So no answer, just whataboutism.
And false equivalence. None of them, in fact no President ever, has done what he is doing.
I answered you. You aren’t listening as always.
Nate asked you if you had given money to the Trump campaign to “stop the steal.”
If you answered the question, could you quote it? I missed the reply.
If you didn’t understand the question, he asked if you were one of those who ‘fell for it’ – “it” being the Trump campaign’s stop-the-steal fund raiser.
The election-fraud lawyers Sidney Powell and Lin Wood are urging Georgia voters not to vote in the senate run-offs if their demands aren’t met.
Their demands won’t be met because they are baseless. Hopefully Georgian Republicans won’t be as stupid as these nitwits are asking them to be, and will actually exercise their democratic right in an important election.
Both the Republican Governor and now Lt Governor of Georgia are calling the fraud assertions baseless and easily debunked.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/georgia-lt-gov-duncan-recount-senate-runoffs-trump
“Even though the guy I voted for isn’t going to win Georgia, I’m still proud that we were able to put on a fair legal election.”
Here is Rudy Giuliani’s star witness on the corruption of tabulating machines in Michigan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2f3aw9rk30
Enjoy!
That was funny!
Especially the politician trying to ask questions through his face diaper. What an idiot.
Then when she mentioned that she had to sign something that would put her in prison if she lied. She asked the panel, “Did you?”
Crickets….
It is hilarious that Clint fails to understand why her testimony is hilarious.
Hes not the sharpest knife in the deck!
Troll Nate can’t even get the trite expression right.
He’s not the sharpest knife in the drawer, in fact, he’s an idiot.
And Clint misses another joke.
What a dimwit!
Troll Nate got caught again.
I got caught assuming for a moment you have an intellect.
And BTW, the legislator, the one she asked if he had signed something, is a Republican. He is the one pointing out that her testimony just doesnt jive with the Poll book that allows them to detect a mismatch. No 30,000 extra votes found. Later she said 100,000 extra votes, that she claimed from running votes thru twice, did not show up as a mismatch. How does she even count to 30,000, or 100,000?
In court her testimony, was not corroborated by other witnesses.. A judge ruled it ‘Not credible’.
Hahaha, yes, it’s the Giuliani clown car. She’s asking Republicans if they did something shady to help the Dems win. The Repubs set up the hearing to uncover evidedence of voter fraud.
The stupid is mighty here. And very entertaining.
Nate,
The only one who’s hilarious is you. The Chairman of the Board of Smartmatic joins the Biden transition team. No worries, just another one of those coincidences.
Wise to Google before posting fake news Stephen.
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-factcheck-smartmatic-ceo-biden-team-d/fact-checksmartmatic-ceo-is-not-on-bidensteamsmartmatic-software-is-not-on-dominion-voting-machines-idUSKBN2801ZJ
G**Damn, why do you keep posting leftist propaganda from Google? He’s on Biden’s transition team, maroon.
These facts are Leftist? Ok Stephen.
Show us.
Again, he is on Biden’s transition team. Your “facts,” like most “facts” from the left, are fiction.
Nate is a graduate of the Goebbels School of Journalism.
I see you didnt say CEO. Ok.
Why do you think it matters?
Smartmatic has nothing to so with Dominion, which in any case not involved in fraud.
nate…”Wise to Google before posting fake news Stephen.”
It’s not unless you have the ability to separate the bs from the truth. Unfortunately, today’s media is full of fake, bs news.
Seeing as Smartmatic machines were only used in Los Angeles – where the vote was always going to be in Biden’s favour – I fail to see the interest in the Chair of of Board for Smartimatic forming part of Biden’s transition team.
Here is some information on this scoundrel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_V._Neffenger
Main thing is Smarmatic is a red herring. Nothing to do with Dominion, which in turn has zero to with fraud, as Barr determined.
nate…”Main thing is Smarmatic is a red herring. Nothing to do with Dominion, which in turn has zero to with fraud, as Barr determined”.
Straight from the CEO of Dominion.
Smartmatic also stated that they have no software shares or interests with Dominion.
Now, in the hard-nosed, fact-based world of nuthouse conspiracy theorists, these two statements are not evidence that Trump’s lawyers have made false claims. No, it is instead cast-iron proof that Smartmatic and Dominion are in cahoots as part of the grand conspiracy to steal the election.
Another thing about those bellwether counties. 19 bellwether counties had picked the President correctly the last 10 election cycles. 18 were supposedly wrong this time. Furthermore, 58 bellwether counties had picked correctly since 2000. This time, 51 of them picked Trump by a whopping 15 points on average. Of the 7 counties that picked Biden, he only won by 4 points. Why were these bellwether counties so wrong this election cycle? The demographics have been investigated. Actually, more blacks and more Hispanics voted for Trump this cycle than last. There really is only one logical answer. This election was compromised!
The GOP is stupid. They are like Opie Taylor. They believe if they play fair, work hard, and connect with the American people, their agenda will win. Capitalism, liberty, sovereignty, and the free-market will win. So, they campaigned hard and worked hard, outworking Biden. One thing they didn’t do. They didn’t cheat as Biden did. The Democrats have zero scruples, folks, ZERO! The leftists are the masterminds, and their ideals are too important to allow losing, no matter what. What have they said since 2016? Trump must lose no matter what.
The black vote for Trump went from several percent to several percent and a bit more this time around.
Hillary also had a bunch of bellweather counties (14) vote for her but Trump won. These states had all predicted the president correctly since at least 1976. 40 years.
So it looks like the election was stolen from her, too?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_election_bellwether_counties_in_the_United_States
Or maybe it’s not statistical fluke that as time goes by, eventually you’re going to see a bunch of ‘bellweather’ counties go the wrong way.
There are over 3000 counties, after all.
Barry, you keep bringing up the leftist nonsense propaganda. The 19 bellwether counties predicted since 1980 where Trump won 18. Those are the bellwether counties everyone was looking at. Go back and find another talking point. That one doesn’t work.
What talking point? I searched for what you claimed, because you never provide sources, and the first hit was the wikipedia page with bellweather counties listed for each presidential election year, where the bellweather county voted for the candidate that lost. It’s purely the statistics, no commentary.
It’s not propaganda, it’s numbers, and the commentary is my own, I didn’t get it from any website.
You can deny deny deny all you like, but it’s not going to make the facts go away, it’s only going to draw you further away from them.
Hillary won 14 bellweather states in 2016. Trump won 19 in 2020.
Are you going to make the same argument for what happened in 2020 that also in 2016?
Or are you going to kepp denying even the premise, which you can easily check it. Which, of course, you haven’t bothered to do.
You can check each of the 14 bellweather counties and their respective results in 2016.
https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/statistics/elections/2016
https://dataverse.harvard.edu/dataset.xhtml?persistentId=doi:10.7910/DVN/VOQCHQ
You have the list of the 14 counties in the wiki link, and now you have 2 websites that you can check each county egainst.
Will checking facts make your head explode because it only operates in the world of rhetoric and lefty-hating?
“Hispanics voted for Trump this cycle than last. There really is only one logical answer. This election was compromised!”
Thats quite a leap. Where is the logic there, Stephen?
It seems conspiracy theorists use a different sort of logic.
What have the Democrats done since 2016? First, they tried to get the electors in 2016 to vote for Hilary. Then, they talked about dissolving the electoral college. Then, they used the FBI, CIA, NSA to spy on Trump. They used FISA to spy on his campaign. They wiretapped him. They entrapped General Flynn. They did everything they could to sabotage his inauguration. They discussed using the 25th amendment. Rosenstein appointed a special counsel, Mueller. They went after Trump campaign officials to try to get them to lie about Trump. The leftist media reported lie after lie about his family and administration. When the Mueller investigation went nowhere, a “whistleblower” comes forth with phony allegations, and the Democrats use this ruse to impeach our beloved President. All of the above did not work. Why does anyone not believe the Democrats wouldn’t stupe to any means to beat Trump? Of course, they would, including cheating in a Presidential election. BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY!
“Mr. Flynn did lie, as he admitted to under oath in a court of law twice. He told investigators, falsely, that he had not communicated with Sergey Kislyak, the Russian ambassador to the United States, about possible changes to American foreign policy toward Russia …”.
https://tinyurl.com/y9oxf2c2
You’re referencing the NYT? You might as well reference Pravda. The investigating agents said he didn’t lie. Have you seen the 302’s? Neither has anyone else. And, when were they written? The Democrats have broken the social contract. To have a republic, both sides have to agree to have free and fair elections. Without upholding this agreement, a republic cannot exist.
You are apparently brainwashed! You probably also believed that Covid-19 would disappear 4th of November.
No, not brainwashed nor a mental disorder, unlike leftists.
No, Trump said the media would stop reporting on COVID after the elction, and his muppets now promulgate that brainless theme at fora such as this one.
No, COVID will be in the news as long as the pandemic continues. Trump has zero say about that, no matter what his ego tells him.
“Rosenstein appointed a special counsel, Mueller.”
Yes. Rosenstein a republican Trump appointee. Mueller a Republican.
Doesnt fit.
Rosenstein, a Trump appointee. That’s your answer. There are a lot of spineless supposed Republicans.
Yes, methinks Stephen doesn’t really know who any of the players are in these stories.
Methinks Barry and Nate are Goebbels School of Journalism graduates and paid propagandists. There’s never been a leftist cause that they didn’t support. I don’t know where they’re from, but the USA’s destruction is their ultimate goal, the miserable SOB’s that they are. No one should listen to you two.
“. I dont know where theyre from, but the USAs destruction is their ultimate goal”
This is one the weirdest stupidist claims that right wing extremists make.
The Left, specifically the ones that get elected to office, want to destroy the country!
It makes absolutely no sense. The Left has different, progressive policy goals, like advancing rights for people, like the reviled gay people, and these positive goals somehow get turned into sinister goals, to destroy America!
The only thing that makes sense is that is a propaganda tool. To make gullible followers HATE the political opponents of their side, they must be transformed into evil destroyers.
It is a classic tool of all propaganda, and indeed Goebbels perfected it.
Stephen, are you so gullible that you fall for this crap?
The only narrative was the left had a temper tantrum because Trump obstructed their “hope and change.” So, now it is BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY, including compromising a Presidential Election. The social contract is over!
Sure Stephen. It works for you because youve got such devotion to the Dear Leader No evidence needed!
The social contract is not over. Trump would rather burn down the Whiote House than leave it gracefully, and his muppets are happy to get riled up, remove all social norms, and break things to serve their dear leader.
His muppets would be perfectly happy for the state legislatures of Pennsylvania, Arizona, Michigan, Georgia and Wisconsin to break their own laws and select Rump electors, instead of those chosen by the will of the people.
Trump muppets will not abide by the rulings of the court. They will ignore them, because Trump said it was rigged and so it must be rigged.
Trump muppets won’t listen to Republican governors and lawmakers in those states saying the elections were fair, because their dear leader, that honest beacon of integrity, has told them that the election was rigged.
In fact, nothing and no one could deter their views, except for the dear leader himself.
They only listen to Trump, and to those who speak for him.
Facts don’t matter. Only Trump’s Word.
The law doesn’t matter. Only Trump’s Word.
Republicans don’t matter. Only Trump’s Word.
Election results don’t matter. Only Trump’s Word.
Some more leftist propaganda for Stephen from yet another Trump supporter
Georgia Republican Lt. Gov. Geoff Duncan:
“I worry that this continuous you know fanning of the flames around misinformation puts us in a negative position with regards to the January 5 runoff,”
“The mountains of misinformation are not helping the process, they’re only hurting it.”
“I can’t think of a worse playbook to hand off over the last four or five weeks to the Democrats.”
Stephen..
All of this is spinning a narrative that Trump never has done anything wrong, while the DEMS have done everything wrong.
Clearly this is good vs evil sort of thinking that you favor.
The reality is way more complex. You have many Republicans involved. Many contacts between DT campaign and Russia. Russia friendly policy. FBI doing a counterintelligence investigating because that is what they SHould Do.
You have DT trying to blackmail a country, to investigate his political oponenent. That was all on him, and Rudy!
Both parties investigate each other.
During Obama years you have many investigations. Fastxand Furious. Benghazi, Benghazi, ..9 times.
What are you talking about? Biden admitted on the video he pressured Ukraine to fire the prosecutor. He and Obama held up one billion in aid. His son was on the board of Burisma with zero experience and couldn’t speak Ukrainian. Hunter was paid $80K per month, and he didn’t attend any meetings. His only qualification was that he was a drug addict. What the hell are you talking about, you lunatic?
Stephen. Remove all context, you can make doing taxes seem nefarious.
And it fails logically. The corrupt prosecutor was not investigating Burisma.
Being a parent myself, it is a long process of learning that youve created an independent person, who will will make many choices that you wouldnt make yourself. And by the time theyre ~ 30 you MAY learn to accept it.
If Hunter Biden runs for office, vote for his opponent.
Nate. You sure like talking to yourself, I will give you that.
You are such a lying propagandist and obfuscator. He was investigating the fleeing CEO of Burisma. Do you think he was the only bad apple at Burisma? He was only the tip of the iceberg. Any amount of crime on the left is OK because your goals are pure, right?
Apparently not to just myself, John. But no need to keep reading, if it bothers you.
No Stephen.
” an anti-corruption advocate in Ukraine say the official, Viktor Shokin, was ousted for the opposite reason Trump and his allies claim.
It wasn’t because Shokin was investigating a natural gas company tied to Biden’s son; it was because Shokin wasn’t pursuing corruption among the country’s politicians, according to a Ukrainian official and four former American officials who specialized in Ukraine and Europe.”
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/10/03/what-really-happened-when-biden-forced-out-ukraines-top-prosecutor/3785620002/
Your legit source isn’t a legit source. I’ve met some of the USA today reporters at a party in Brevard, Fla. There isn’t a leftist cause or politician they don’t support. They are Pravda. Biden had him ousted to help Burisma and his son.
And https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Shokin
But feel free to show us your legit ‘source’.
This actually is a legit source, unlike yours.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/hunter-bidens-ukraine-gas-firm-lobbied-state-department-to-end-corruption-allegations-emails-show_3137480.html
Really Stephen, You are a big believer in Falun Gong?
You can’t find a legitimate source that doesnt have a built-in political agenda????
“For years, The Epoch Times was a small, low-budget newspaper with an anti-China slant that was handed out free on New York street corners. But in 2016 and 2017, the paper made two changes that transformed it into one of the countrys most powerful digital publishers.
The changes also paved the way for the publication, which is affiliated with the secretive and relatively obscure Chinese spiritual movement Falun Gong, to become a leading purveyor of right-wing misinformation.”
But they are not as weird as Stephen, they do say that Flynn pleaded guilty.
Stephen.
Here is an official record of a speech by US Ambassador to Ukraine, under Obama.
https://www.justsecurity.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Remarks-by-US-Ambassador-Geoffrey-Pyatt-at-the-Odesa-Financial-Forum-on-September-24-2015-ukraine.pdf
He is specifically complaining about the DROPPED investigation of Burisma head, Zlochevsky, by the Prosecutor Generals Office (PGO). .
“We have learned that there have been times that the PGO not only did not support investigations
into corruption, but rather undermined prosecutors working on legitimate corruption cases.
For example, in the case of former Ecology Minister Mykola Zlochevsky, the U.K. authorities had
seized 23 million dollars in illicit assets that belonged to the Ukrainian people. Officials at the PGO’s
office were asked by the U.K to send documents supporting the seizure.
Instead they sent letters to Zlochevsky’s attorneys attesting that there was no case against him. As a
result the money was freed by the U.K. court and shortly thereafter the money was moved to
Cyprus.
The misconduct by the PGO officials who wrote those letters should be investigated, and those
responsible for subverting the case by authorizing those letters should – at a minimum – be
summarily terminated.”
For context. That DROPPED investigation happened under Shokin’s time as head of the PGO. A few months after the speech above, he was fired.
At last! Some hard evidence of voter fraud.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/florida-attorney-under-investigation-moving-to-georgia-to-vote
“Trump barely shows up to work ignoring crisis”…..this is the lie perpetrated by Yahoo News today. You lying leftists never stop. You have nothing else to do but spread lies about Trump. No one believes your lying Pravda media except the corrupt, hollow, soulless sycophants on the left.
Some more leftists:
– Rex Tillerson said he is a “moron”.
– John Bolton says “unfit for office”.
– Jim Mattis says “limited cognitive ability”.
– John Kelly thinks he is harming the US.
– Mike Mullen says it’s “impossible to remain silent”.
– John Allen says “awful for the United States and its democracy”.
– William McRaven says his “leadership was putting the nation at risk”.
Rex Tillerson, John Bolton, Jim Mattis, John Kelly, et al. None of them are the man that Trump is.
Stephen` Paul Anderson
So says you a blind Trumpster who can’t see past his own hand. You have a very small view of the world and blindly accept the words of a liar and dishonest person. Strange attraction. Are you also a compulsive liar and like him because he compliments your behavior?
Norman,
I will put my view of the world up against your view any day.
Rex Tillerson for Stephen and all of us:
https://youtu.be/GRtsnJhHEfk?t=462
“Rex Tillerson, John Bolton, Jim Mattis, John Kelly, et al. None of them are the man that Trump is.”
Among the generals, Mattis, Kelly, none of them had a bone spur that kept them from serving, while not remembering which foot it was on.
None of them have said: “I like people who weren’t captured”.
Nor called “World War I dead at an American military cemetery in France ‘losers’ and ‘suckers’.”
There is simply no denying that since the election, Trump has ignored the real crisis facing the country, the surge in the pandemic, with a 9-11 number of deaths happening daily.
Instead he is only paying attention to overturning by any means his election loss, and golf.
There is simply no way to sugar coat this behavior, as anything but self serving, in a time of real crisis for the country.
I don’t know; I think Trump has been much more heroic than John McCain ever was.
Self-serving? You butt head; he’s been anything but self-serving. He serves the American people. He’s concerned about you leftist psychopaths.
“He serves the American people.”
When it comes to the Covid Pandemic that is the central crisis facing the country right now, his leadership is MIA.
He has checked out. Because it only mattered when he faced the election.
“I think Trump has been much more heroic than John McCain ever was.”
Oh Puleeez.
“McCain requested a combat assignment,[26] and was assigned to the aircraft carrier USS Forrestal flying A-4 Skyhawks.[27] His combat duty began when he was 30 years old in mid-1967, when Forrestal was assigned to a bombing campaign, Operation Rolling Thunder, during the Vietnam War.[22][28] Stationed in the Gulf of Tonkin, McCain and his fellow pilots became frustrated by micromanagement from Washington, and he later wrote, ‘In all candor, we thought our civilian commanders were complete idiots who didn’t have the least notion of what it took to win the war.'[28][29]
On July 29, 1967, McCain was a lieutenant commander when he was near the center of the USS Forrestal fire. He escaped from his burning jet and was trying to help another pilot escape when a bomb exploded;[30] McCain was struck in the legs and chest by fragments.[31] The ensuing fire killed 134 sailors and took 24 hours to control.[32][33] With the Forrestal out of commission, McCain volunteered for assignment with the USS Oriskany, another aircraft carrier employed in Operation Rolling Thunder.[34] There, he was awarded the Navy Commendation Medal and the Bronze Star Medal for missions flown over North Vietnam.[35]
Prisoner of war
McCain was taken prisoner of war on October 26, 1967. He was flying his 23rd bombing mission over North Vietnam when his A-4E Skyhawk was shot down by a missile over Hanoi.[36][37] McCain fractured both arms and a leg when he ejected from the aircraft,[38] and nearly drowned after he parachuted into Trc Bạch Lake. Some North Vietnamese pulled him ashore, then others crushed his shoulder with a rifle butt and bayoneted him.[36] McCain was then transported to Hanoi’s main Hỏa L Prison, nicknamed the ‘Hanoi Hilton’.[37]
Although McCain was seriously wounded and injured, his captors refused to treat him. They beat and interrogated him to get information, and he was given medical care only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was an admiral.[39] His status as a prisoner of war (POW) made the front pages of major American newspapers.[40][41]
McCain spent six weeks in the hospital, where he received marginal care. He had lost 50 pounds (23 kg), he was in a chest cast, and his gray hair had turned white.[36] McCain was sent to a different camp on the outskirts of Hanoi.[42] In December 1967, McCain was placed in a cell with two other Americans, who did not expect him to live more than a week.[43] In March 1968, McCain was placed into solitary confinement, where he remained for two years.[44]
In mid-1968, his father John S. McCain Jr. was named commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater, and the North Vietnamese offered McCain early release[45] because they wanted to appear merciful for propaganda purposes,[46] and also to show other POWs that elite prisoners were willing to be treated preferentially.[45] McCain refused repatriation unless every man taken in before him was also released. Such early release was prohibited by the POWs’ interpretation of the military Code of Conduct, which states in Article III: ‘I will accept neither parole nor special favors from the enemy.'[47] To prevent the enemy from using prisoners for propaganda, officers were to agree to be released in the order in which they were captured.[36]
Beginning in August 1968, McCain was subjected to a program of severe torture.[48] He was bound and beaten every two hours; this punishment occurred at the same time that he was suffering from heat exhaustion and dysentery.’
I had a friend who is dead now who was on one of the hose teams on the Forrestal. I’m retired Navy. We’ve discussed John McCain before. I will say he doesn’t have a high opinion of McCain. He said he doesn’t remember John McCain on that day. He said there were a lot of heroes that day. Half the men on his hose team died. But, he doesn’t remember John McCain.
I meant he didn’t have a high opinion of McCain.
Sorry, I still think of him in the present.
I respect John McCain for his service. He was a prisoner of war. His previous prisoner of war status doesn’t make his political opinions sacrosanct or unimpeachable. President Trump has shown he is a man of great courage with little support from his own party. He has governed as a conservative. He appointed conservative judges when many in his own party wilted in the face of the leftist opposition. He has kept every promise he made during his campaign when most in the past have not. He has shown me to be more of a man than John McCain ever did, who only displayed political cowardice. John McCain’s greatest achievement is he survived in a Vietcong prison camp. So did others who didn’t use the fact to benefit their careers.
You’re funny, Nate. As a leftist propagandist, you only trumpet Republicans when they don’t act like Republicans when they wilt in the face of the leftist opposition, which McCain did time after time. Now McCain is a hero because he was jealous of Trump and decided to oppose Trump and be a media lapdog.
Stephen,
My father was career Army, served in Korea and Vietnam.
You being Navy, Im surprised that you let Trumps military transgressions pass, and your thinking about McCain.
I have respect for McCain, while not always agreeing with him. He also was courageous in his politics, not always aligning with his Party. He was respected on both sides of the aisle.
He also had old fashioned integrity. He conceded the 2008 election as a gentlemen. When a woman in his crowd tried to say his opponent Obama was a muslim, he corrected her.
That is something Trump would never do. He of course spent years pursuing the Birther lie.
Stephen Paul Anderson
Maybe you should attempt to be somewhat critical of your information sources. If you get your material from Right Wing blogs it seems to be mostly made up. This is unfortunate. If you distrust the Left you should also be leery of the Right.
Evidence shows the Right makes up 3 times the information when compared to Left. Anyone who makes up false information is wrong. But you should consider the Right lies more than the Left. Sad!
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2013/05/politifact-lies-republicans-vs-democrats/314794/
Also this story is spread on Right Wing blogs but it is totally made up. The General has no credibility but he uses his Military position to intentionally lie to the gullible followers. Sad!
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fact-check-no-soldiers-died-in-nonexistent-raid-to-seize-election-servers-in-germany/ar-BB1bFpDz?li=BBnb7Kz
Coming from someone who references “The Atlantic” and “msn.” Really? Shut up!
I guess you never show us your sources because they are twitter and facebook.
Most likely they are QANON and Alex Jones and OANN.
Says Nate, the Minister of Propaganda, who takes his marching orders from CNN, MSN, and Google.
Well Stephen, when you never have facts on your side, or rebuttals to the facts we raised, you need to blame our mainstream news sources.
They must be corrupt, leftist, part of the conspiracy.
The question is not whether they are right leaning (WSJ) or left-leaning (NYT), but whether their main goal is good journalism, getting the story and getting it right. Both of these do.
But other sources have a political agenda and less emphasis on journalistic ethics, like Epoch Times